ID Cards

Go on Laurie, you know you want to say the word, go on, go on.......

It's TYRANNY isn't it!

With a capital 'T'

JR

The UK version will no doubt eventually be PFI funded (No security there then) and they simply do not work anyway, cos I know, innit.


Fritz Von Wotalarkinnit

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Go on Laurie, you know you want to say the word, go on, go on.......

It's TYRANNY isn't it!

With a capital 'T'

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YES (with a capital Y)

Also...it is no joking matter imo

Where will it end?

Laurie S

Well what with Britain's unwritten Constitution (not a lot ov people know this) and it's first ever Freedom of Information Act (ing) coming theoretically into play (act) in January 2005, you've got absolutely nuffinlk to worry abaat innit, trust³ them !

Fritz Von Oneborneveryminute - innit

Laurie

You must hate going to those tyranncal countries like Sweden and Norway and Ireland which have ID cards and/or ban smoking in public places. For you, it's probably like being in Saddams' Iraq.



Do you honestly believe that your freedoms have been curtailed over the last 7 years? Or is it just a 'gut feeling'.

Stephen

PS I'll tell you what I feel curtails my freedom; The ownership of the land and subsequent power held by the royal family along with their position and platform in society - and any others who have gained the same by accident of birth.

I'm allowed to vent; its my Birthday!

I just thought; will the queen have an ID card?

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Sorry...I don`t get to pay a fine if I forget to take my credit card out with me

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Try going abroad without your passport though.

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Sorry...I don`t get to pay a fine if I forget to take my credit card out with me...

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You won't for not carrying an ID card either, it will be the same as your driving licence, you'll just have to show it later at the local police station.

I don't have a problem with ID cards in general, although I've yet to hear a convincing argument for their use, but I will object most strongly to paying for one.

Identity fraud is a serious problem, but in many of the cases where it occurs, I'm not convinced an ID card will do anything to prevent it.

Laurie, do you have any supermarket cards, e.g. Nectar or Clubcard. If so do you feel your liberties are infringed by the mass data gathering and targetted advertising they are used for?

Andy.

Seriously though Laurie .
What problem do they aim to solve?
Do you agree that this is indeed a problem?
Do you agree that identity cards will solve the problem?
How do we compare with countries that have identity cards w.r.t. 'the problem'?

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You won't for not carrying an ID card either, it will be the same as your driving licence, you'll just have to show it later at the local police station

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Doesn`t that amount to same thing?. Surely this just adds a time delay. If I do not produce it at a police station, will I be liable to a fine?

With a driving licence, this only applies if I am driving a vehicle, not, surely, walking down the street?

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Laurie, do you have any supermarket cards, e.g. Nectar or Clubcard. If so do you feel your liberties are infringed by the mass data gathering and targetted advertising they are used for?

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Yes, I do.

the crucial difference, though ,is the issue of choice

If I choose, I do not have to have any "plastic" at all.

I understand that ID cards will be compulsory

If they are not then they are hardly worth the trouble, surely

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Seriously though Laurie .
What problem do they aim to solve?
Do you agree that this is indeed a problem?
Do you agree that identity cards will solve the problem?
How do we compare with countries that have identity cards w.r.t. 'the problem'?

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I agree...I have not seen a convincing case in their favour, yet I have concerns about their costs, and impact on our liberty

Laurie

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Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:
PS I'll tell you what I feel curtails my freedom; The ownership of the land and subsequent power held by the royal family along with their position and platform in society - and any others who have gained the same by accident of birth.

I'm allowed to vent; its my Birthday!

I just thought; will the queen have an ID card?

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Accident AT birth more like.

Happy Birthday.

The head retard will have to carry around a five pound note at all times. That should cover her ID.

Cheers

Harry

Remember, this is England. No one will get around to carrying it, even if required by law. The police will be so busy handing out tickets that all their other functions will grind to a halt. I shudder to think of the potential for identity fraud, once your life is on one card. They can't possibly believe these cards will be secure. They might say otherwise but I bet they're not thinking it.

Cheers

Harry

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PS I'll tell you what I feel curtails my freedom; The ownership of the land and subsequent power held by the royal family along with their position and platform in society - and any others who have gained the same by accident of birth.

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My views on Royalty and inherited wealth are probably closer to yours than you might guess..

Perhaps you can start a thread.....

(I`ll happily contribute!)

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You must hate going to those tyranncal countries like Sweden and Norway and Ireland which have ID cards and/or ban smoking in public places

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I don`t have enough knowledge here to comment

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Do you honestly believe that your freedoms have been curtailed over the last 7 years? Or is it just a 'gut feeling'.

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Without being overly dramatic, these changes are incremental.Large changes are made up of many small ones

Certainly from the perspective of my work, the last 7 years has seen a massive increase in goverment intrusiveness (aka beurocracy) which does little, if anything, to improve the front line service, but seems mainly to serve the purpose of creating swathes of meaningless statistics that can easily be abused by trying to fool us that we really are better off under New Labour

(For the first time I believe) there are now more people employed in the public, than private sector,...a large proportion of these employed in filling in myriad meaningless forms and passing them around and Mr Brown will likely have to have another tax hike after the election to pay for the growing Budget Deficit

Yes...I definitely feel that my personal freedom has detriorated since New Labour came to power..I do not believe it is a "gut" feeling (you mean intuition?)and I worry that it will continue to do so

laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Fri 26 November 2004 at 16:42.]

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Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:

Yes...I definitely feel that my personal freedom has detriorated since New Labour came to power..I do not believe it is a "gut" feeling (you mean intuition?)and I worry that it will continue to do so

laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Fri 26 November 2004 at 16:42.]

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Laurie, can you be more specific? How have you been specifically affected by this loss of personal freedom?

I suggest you visit Sweden and ask them about ID cards. They can't smack their children either - so their society should be awash with criminals! According to the 'pro' smackers here, that's what would result if that loss of 'personal freedom', i.e. a smacking ban, were implemented here.

As for the royal family issue, I never feel that one person who has a different opinion on one issue from another has to have the same differences in other areas. Look at Boris Johnson and Brian Eno!



Regards

Stephen

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Remember, this is England. No one will get around to carrying it, even if required by law. The police will be so busy handing out tickets that all their other functions will grind to a halt. I shudder to think of the potential for identity fraud, once your life is on one card. They can't possibly believe these cards will be secure. They might say otherwise but I bet they're not thinking it.

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LOL.
I laugh when 'police are collecting speeding tickets' is published. This is because all I ask is what proof of this do you have? In Notts the speed camera's etc are dealt with by police staff, not police officers. Please bang a more evidence based drum...

RE ID cards perhaps, Laurie, you need to see the issue from the other side. Sure its a possible breach of human rights (freedom to move about/freedom to posessions etc), but the people who do not wish to carry will be in certain categories surely, and one of those include those who do not wish to be identified for obvious reasons... Another will be for the reason you state, and I respect your opinion re this.

I would like the production of driving licences to be absolute, and made an arrestable offence if the driver does not have it with them. Stern stuff, but I pay about 30-50% more insurance per year due to persons who don't have insurance, or the relevant licence.

I respect your stance on the state interfering. I just hope that if a crime is committed near you, someone is seen in the area acting sus but no more, but there is not sufficiant grounds to request their name/address etc or they refuse, that they are not trying to hide their ID for some reason when they could have been detained for lack of an ID card. Also, alot of criminals who are wanted on warrant give false details - an ID card would give the police another option, and also inroads into them.

Re card fraud, lets go the whole way and have fingerprints put on them - then give the police the equipment to cross- check.

I'll get me coat.

regards,

andy c!

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Laurie, can you be more specific? How have you been specifically affected by this loss of personal freedom?

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OK

I don`t (or won`t soon) have the right to smoke in enclosed public places..

If I want to sell my house I will HAVE to compile a "package" which includes a survey, which I will have to pay for

I have to pay (through my increased taxes) for a lot of the other hairbrain schemes initiated by this Government

I soon will only be able to buy ONLY a condensing boiler for my central heating, even though it will likely cost me much more, be far less reliable and will unlikely have reduced CO2 emmissions

I now have to fill in many, many more forms

Shall I go on..

Laurie S

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I respect your stance on the state interfering. I just hope that if a crime is committed near you, someone is seen in the area acting sus but no more, but there is not sufficiant grounds to request their name/address etc or they refuse, that they are not trying to hide their ID for some reason when they could have been detained for lack of an ID card.

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On the last 4 occaisons I have had dealings with the police (=100%) I have not been impressed

The last one (quite recently) was when I was sent a forged cheque......after a number of fruitless phone calls it was evident that the response was complete disinterest

I guess, in extremis, if everone was locked up, there would be no crime..

I have no problem with ID cards if they were to deliver the benefits claimed.......it is just that I do not believe this to be the case...I am sure that criminals would easily be able to circumvent them

Laurie S

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On the last 4 occaisons I have had dealings with the police (=100%) I have not been impressed

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Hi Laurie,
Fair enough, but have you complained about this, and of the four times you were dealt with why do you feel you were dealt with improperly?

andy c!

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I have no problem with ID cards if they were to deliver the benefits claimed

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the main one being that they're going to somehow stop terrorism. Not sure how having a piece of plastic in your pocket is going to stop you blowing things up.

For every encryption algorithm there will be a decryption algorithm. We live in a world of opposites, where for every good there is a bad.

I think, like New driving licences, we should have our faces on the credit cards, I despair at this new pin number thing, all you have to do is watch someone type it in then go and mug them later on go, to the tap out and whey! hey! Here I come smack!

And while we're on drugs, find an Island, called it heroin Island, and then create a one strike and ya out rule, stick the scum on there and let them kill each other, it gets them off the streets don't ya think! But I’m not bitter…

Id cards are fine as long as the system is ok, but with anything to do with computers and humans, things are never that simple, I feel that we already live in a society ruled by fear; the fear of murder, mugging robbery, rape but to name a few, a card where big brother is watching you may be a step to far.

The innocent have nothing to fear, tell that to all the so called witches burnt in the 13th and 14th centuries approx lol!

We are human, we err by design, we design computers that; by design err, because it is designed by an imperfect mind. criminals look for the flaws; the back doors that are open and take advantage, they see the compliancy we have and again use it against us. It would be nice to live in a world where you could leave the door open and know your safe, but it aint gonna happen, society is changing, becoming more fragmented and losing the community framework that keep a lot of criminals at bay, so you see we are as much to blame as anybody, accepting responsibility isn’t easy but its may be the first step to a more pro active society and a regrouping of communities.

I can only hope.

Hmm! I see...

Can't say I like the practical side of it, like remembering to take an ID card if I nip to the shops or go for a ride, but other than that, I'm not sure I understand why people are getting so upset about it.. I may be ignorant of the facts but it's norm in a lot of other western countries isn't it?

When they start swabbing sweat samples and storing them in jars I might start to worry...

cheers,
Paul

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I don`t (or won`t soon) have the right to smoke in enclosed public places..

If I want to sell my house I will HAVE to compile a "package" which includes a survey, which I will have to pay for

I have to pay (through my increased taxes) for a lot of the other hairbrain schemes initiated by this Government

I soon will only be able to buy ONLY a condensing boiler for my central heating, even though it will likely cost me much more, be far less reliable and will unlikely have reduced CO2 emmissions

I now have to fill in many, many more forms

Shall I go on..

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Laurie

With all due respect mate, do you not just feel that all laws cause a loss to your personal freedom? Some of those things you mentioned are long overdue imo.

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Hi Laurie,
Fair enough, but have you complained about this, and of the four times you were dealt with why do you feel you were dealt with improperly?

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Andy

working in the public sector myself. I know what the police are up against and sympathise greatly with their position

By nature I am not the sort of guy to "make a complaint" so the answer is no...I just wish these things didn`t happen

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Laurie

With all due respect mate, do you not just feel that all laws cause a loss to your personal freedom? Some of those things you mentioned are long overdue imo.

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I accept we need laws and also that wemust compromise individual freedom for the good of the community at large

I have no problem with that


Maybe this sounds arrogant, but to me some of the ideas proposed are just plain ill concieved and I am constantly alert.

In essence I guess I just don`t trust thhis (or any other) goverment enough not to worry that they`re about to make an a almighty balls-up

What I find most alarming in all this......is not ID cards perse......as I said, if a good case can be made, then I`m in favour.

I find it quite useful to have ID with me at times.

What is most alarming is the justification for ID presented by government ministers......it makes me really worried about what sort of (lack of) mentality is really driving this country

Laurie S

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Originally posted by andy c:
Re card fraud, lets go the whole way and have fingerprints put on them - then give the police the equipment to cross- check.
andy c!

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And give criminals the chance to steal my finger prints? Don't think so.

I don't suppose for one moment that the police will be running around collecting the fines. But won't they be issuing them? If not then who - bus conductors?

Cheers

Harry

Ain't paranoia wonderful?

Worrying about ID cards is pure bullshit when most of us are carrying credit cards, library cards, driving licenses, etc etc.
I always show Danish police officers my Welsh Language Driving License as ID.

Here's one for the paranoid: I saw a security system on the TV news. Based on infra-red cameras to be placed strategically around the home. In the event of a fire or other disaster the cameras would tell attending services who, what and where the occupants are/were. Oh yeah?

Still paranoid? Did you know that Windows XP has a built in secret link back to HQ for all webcam users? Every time you log on the latest webcam images are sent as a zipped package straight back to Gates Mansions. (Just before the ikons come up) Haven't you ever wondered why XP takes so long to wake up? Well now you know.

Having had two credit cards cloned and hammered by persons unknown I'm in little doubt that however sophisticated the encryption on an ID card will be, a 12 year old will have it cracked inside a week. This is not paranoia. I'm not bothered about Big Brother. I'm bothered about the scope for inconvieniencing me should someone lift any of the details.

In both cases the situation got sorted out and I was reimbursed. But it caused a lot of aggro. Will this sort of thing be a common occurance if I carry an ID card (which if prescribed by law I will will obviously do)? Seems like a reasonable question. Excuse me if I don't pay any attention to the answers offered by the politicians.

Does this happen in countries where ID cards are required? Anyone?

Cheers

Harry