ID Cards

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And while we're on drugs, find an Island, called it heroin Island, and then create a one strike and ya out rule, stick the scum on there and let them kill each other, it gets them off the streets don't ya think! But I’m not bitter…

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Would you apply this solution/punishment to just the heroin users, or users of all drugs, such as cocaine, ecstasy, alcohol and tobacco?

As for ID cards and the “nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide” well what if you have got something to hide? Or at least something (perfectly legal) that may well be recorded that you would prefer to keep private. Yes the government tell us only certain bits of info will be stored but once in place more and more info will be gleaned from our “private life” until our social and financial history is on our ID card, whether you like it or not. If you take the “nothing to fear” to its logical conclusion we all may as well be microchiped at birth and sat nav systems could monitor individual movements, now that would be really helpful,
John.

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Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:

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Seriously though Laurie .
What problem do they aim to solve?
Do you agree that this is indeed a problem?
Do you agree that identity cards will solve the problem?
How do we compare with countries that have identity cards w.r.t. 'the problem'?

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I agree...I have not seen a convincing case in their favour, yet I have concerns about their costs, and impact on our liberty

Laurie

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I was hoping for a bit more info but I had a bit of a google.

Problem? Identity Fraud, costs 1.3 billion quid a year to the UK economy apparently.

Proposed Solution? Identity Card

Is it a problem? 1.3 billion is a lot of fraud. CBI seems keen, understandably.

Cost? Probably similar to a passport or driving license.

Impacts on our liberty? Not in itself, it's how it is used and what data they store and who gets to see it which counts. I don't object to having to show ID when, say, opening a bank account or even using a credit card if it combats fraud. I don't understand why it has to be compulsory (though useful for those without a passport or driving license).

Will identity cards solve the problem? It is obviously reasonably easy to pass yourself off as someone else (to the tune of 1.3 billion). Presumably a certain proportion of that was using a forged driving license or passport. What will make an ID card any less easy to forge I wonder?

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When they start swabbing sweat samples and storing them in jars I might start to worry...

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That's basically what's planned.

It would be very easy for the police to cut down on the number of uninsured and unlicensed drivers, they choose not to. Very simple. ID cards clearly won't help, they're just a mechanism for additional state control. Governments have changed on such 'nothing to hide' measures, but I expect we're all a bit more cowed nowadays.

"Papers please."

Paul

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Presumably a certain proportion of that was using a forged driving license or passport. What will make an ID card any less easy to forge I wonder?

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A reasonable person would take steps to make driving licences and passports rather more secure. No controversy, real improvements. Not really Blunkett's style.

Paul

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Originally posted by John K R:

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And while we're on drugs, find an Island, called it heroin Island, and then create a one strike and ya out rule, stick the scum on there and let them kill each other, it gets them off the streets don't ya think! But I’m not bitter…

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Would you apply this solution/punishment to just the heroin users, or users of all drugs, such as cocaine, ecstasy, alcohol and tobacco?
John.

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A different Island for Alcohol; me thinks!
When you are forced to deal with the consequences of your actions and see a mirrored reflection of yourself at every turn, reminding you of what you are and what effect you have had on the other people around you. The fact you cannot just go and get another fix to blot out your troubles, that you have to face them and watch all these other people that are like you deal with their troubles, would be enough to put anyone off drugs for life. I have no sympathy for drug users, I hate; and that’s a strong word, hate dealers, dealers should be put to death, like the death they deal out, with a massive overdose of the drug they tout. But, that isn’t going to happen, these people are going to be wet nursed for murdering our children and society won't do a damn thing about it. These Islands would be self governed with no way out, bit like Alcatraz

Smokers don't go and nick your stereo out of your car for a pack of ciggys, so they wouldn't go on an island! Aren’t I nice eh! lol!
Smokers can buy cigarettes and put a goldfish bowl on their heads, and choke on their own smoke. I abhor smoking it’s a filthy habit, imagine sticking your tongue into a smoker’s mouth to kiss them, Yuk! It would be like sticking your tongue into an ashtray; would you do that? I didn't think so, better still try it.

Id cards hmmm! Due to the lack of physical policing, virtual policing may have to be enforced. The police are being spread to thin and the criminals know this.
The population is getting bigger but the government don't seem to care. To get an idea of how to run a city, try playing SIM City it gives you an insight into the financial structuring needed to keep a city growing without it decaying into mayhem.

It’s more difficult than it seems.

Big Brother is Watching

Anyone remember the new gun laws. There still seem to be an awful lot of guns around.

I see the same problem with ID cards - do the powers that be seriously believe they will assist in reducing crime and preventing terrorism? Either they are plain deluded or it's something more sinister.

And if it's true that the intended law is such that should you happen to forget your card and be required to produce it to a police station later - what? I can really see that stopping crime/terrorism.

Mike

"Everytime I go out I think I'm being checked out - Faceless people watching on a tv screen - Do you begin to sense it just beneath the surface - Reflections in a window whilst walking down a street - Computers are abused school records are fed - Police are checking on what you've said - The number on your car is fed into a box - Your journeys been checked it's a paradox - Duplicate forms and id cards are next in line to disregard -

Future generations are relying on us it's a world we've made - Incubus"

Lyrics, D Brock 1981

Tyranny comes like a thief in the night. Laurie is right that freedoms disappear incrementally.

Unless we are watchful of our civil liberties we will lose them.

Good faith should exist between a government and the people. ID cards are not a sign of good faith.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

Deane

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It would be very easy for the police to cut down on the number of uninsured and unlicensed drivers, they choose not to.

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Go on then, give me a clue.!

Also, you need to realise that unlicensed drivers etc are not a policing priority in relation ot anti-social behaviour/burglary/violent and gun related crime/drug crime etc. Who sets that agenda - the govnt!

soz, don't agree with the above. It is very easy to target traffic offences, but its very staff intensive. Also, it's partly about folk who know whoever is committing these offences getting off their arses and letting the police know about it!

I agree with darkan9el.

Some would view that we live in a society where everyone expects things to be done for them, rather than doing things for themselves...


andy c!

"unlicensed drivers"

However they have a tendency to be involved in other law breaking activity and /or wanted for inquiries on cases under investigation and / or carrying stolen or illegal goods. They also tend to not have car insurance, so scanning the number plates of all cars and nobbling and searching cars that are not registered correctly with the DVLC and insured and interrogating the driver does have a good chance of solving outstanding cases, generating a few more and keeping the streets a bit "cleaner"

If the technology can be used to ensure that road users pay their congestion charge in London, then the same technology can be added to all police cars cruising around.

Derek

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ID cards have nothing to do with terrorism. A great new opportunity for forgers though.
I don't know yet why I don't like the sound of it, but I'm sure that in 10 years time, I will have realised. The technology isn't really there to make much of it at the moment, but it will be pretty soon, and then there will be no turning back. Carry it, and your DNA is on it. That is a fact.
I can't think why Blunkett is so pre-occupied with identity.

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Go on then, give me a clue.!

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It's blindingly obvious. If you need to be told then I think you may be in the wrong profession.

You know which vehicles are taxed, you know where vehicles are registered and what type of vehicle goes with what registration. You sit beside the road and look for suspicious vehicles which you stop and inspect. If you ask the insurance industry nicely they could probably generate a list of insured vehicles which would make targetting even more accurate.

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Also, you need to realise that unlicensed drivers etc are not a policing priority in relation ot anti-social behaviour/burglary/violent and gun related crime/drug crime etc. Who sets that agenda - the govnt!

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Criminals tend not to tax nor insure. Driving without insurance is anti-social at best. By tolerating criminals at this level while clamping down on law abiding drivers who are a little late in renewing their tax you reinforce anti-social behaviour while continuing to erode public confidence in the police.

Paul

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
If you ask the insurance industry nicely they could probably generate a list of insured vehicles which would make targetting even more accurate.

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Paul,

Big Brother is here already.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.

The main reason for the existence of the insurance data is to prevent fraudulent claims which cost the insurance companies money (e.g. making two claims for the same incident) rather than identifying who hasn't insured their vehicle which ultimately costs the customers in higher premiums.

It may be the main reason - but I was told that is accessible by the police

Derek

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The only thing I want to say on this subject is this (and I believe this is central to the argument against compulsory I-D cards):

The right, as a human being, to walk down the street in one's own country, going about one's lawful business, is not in the gift of this or any other government. Compulsory I-D cards effectively mean that you need someone's permission to go outside. Fuck that! And as for paying £80-odd for the privilege...

Blunkett and Blair's I-card scheme is a ridiculous, ill-thought out and expensive attempt by an authoriarian government to curb liberty and to suck up to the Right-wing Press.

Kevin

Ps If the need is so great, so urgent, why will it take 8 or 9 years to introduce them?