PRaT - Why can't we measure it?

Hi Harris,
You are essentially right. There is nothing wrong with bringing science into this forum. The reason that hifi owners don't play a CD of live music and get a wholly real experience, eg including excellent timing, detail, positioning, precision, and spine-tingling emotion, is because of the science that gets in the way. These factors should all be there at the same time.

NAIM are no exceptions to this. They don't have a Harry Potteresc potion that they sprinkle on their amps to make them sound "toe-tapping". If they did they would also make them sound good in detail and sound stage and would have removed that "Naim sound" that people talk about like its an old friend.

In my experience, these electronic distortions are not so subtle. How to measure them is subtle but the effects are not. For example, Naim have real measures using real production line instruments to select and match power transistors. They do this to reduce the things you refered to. Things like transient signal tracking errors, transient instability and time delay distortion effects that often hamper high feedback amp designs like the Naims.

Why don't we invite Naim engineering to comment on the measures they use to qualify their components?

If I were Naim I wouldn't reveal them. This is their competitive edge. But if I were Naim I would be trying damned hard to fill in the performance gaps and improve the strength of my brand on the world map.

The source music is the art. The system that simulates it for you in your home is the science.

Bam,
I think you are wrong all the way.
We can't measure PRaT and we can't measure musicality.
Let's take the most complicated engeeniring deed - sending a man to the moon, it
involves experts in physics, Math and electronics.
No doubt!! bring the greatest specialist in BOTH areas - he will not be able to plan and manufactue an amp like the Nait 5 (althogh he can send a man to the moon) and that is because in order to manufacture a musical equipment, you have to be deep deep deep in the music UNDERSTANDING.
Do you agree that such a scientist can't manufactuer with all his knowledge a violine ?
a pino ? but he can send a man to the moon !

All instruments and electronics (hi value elcronics) that deal with music have something to do with our brain that is not written in any book.
I know engeenirs who are THINKING that it is easy to plan and built an amplifier. I'd learned electricity - and an amplifier is the very basic
component almost in every electrical device and that what makes people thinking that it is easy.

We can't measure music in a mathematic way.
There is no equipment that can act as fast and as acurate as our brain in analyzing sounds.

Arie

Arie,
Thanks for the reply. I should probably have set up a new thread for this topic. Anyhow, here's my response to your points:

1. If Stratovarius decided to mass produe his violins I think you'd find he defined the critical parameters to measure during production and materials inspection to ensure a consistent product. Naim have consistent sounding amps, don't they? Electronic components are far from consistent even within the same batches. How many amps do you think Naim reject at the final listening stage?

2. An electronic amplifier IS easy to make. To make one that reproduces a larger version of its input voltage across a speaker load, exactly, is very hard. There are lots of ways in which the electronics can "lose the plot" and each way affects the realism of the sound. It's not magic, but as you imply it does require a judgement about which trade-offs are optimum.

3. I am not suggesting we can measure musicality. But I am suggesting that we can measure the performance parameters of an electronic system that are important to preserving musicality. The measurement equipment is definitely fast enough for this. Besides, how else does Naim make a range of products with a consistent sound quality differential? Do you think this is by chance?

BAM

"But I am suggesting that we can measure the performance parameters of an electronic system that are important to preserving musicality. "

If that were true, why is there only a handful of amps on the planet Earth that sound remotely like music? Wouldn't musical amps be everywhere ?

regards,

dave

Hi Dave,
Good question. I'm into lists tonight for some reason (forgive me). Here's a few explanations for consideration:

1. Economics. The market for high-end hifi isn't that economically attractive: demand is low, the market is growing relatively slowly, and branding and distribution channels are hard to develop. Margins are relatively low but capital investment is high as it is for most manufacturing firms. There is seasonality in the demand cycle. The upshot is that not many people are attracted to it as a business venture. Finding entrepreneurs who are interested enough in the subject to do it, who have the design skills, manufacturing process skills and marketing skills and who have the financial freedom to do it is uncommon.

2. Marketing. Actually there are thousands of musical amps etc out there. Some are made by individuals and never make it to production and we never hear about them. Thousands are made each year by a handful of companies. Different customers want different things. Why doesn't Sony buy out Naim and incorporate the superior technology into its products? Because it would increase Sony's manufacturing costs and their target customers wouldn't pay more for it. Why doesn't Sony buy out Naim and market 250s under to audiophiles? Because the returns wouldn't justify the investment: Sony can make more return on its capital in its other businesses. Why doesn't Naim produce a feature-rich surround-sound processor with the best sound quality? Because it would need high investment in both production and brand, it would face fierce competition and because there aren't enough customers who would buy it today to make it profitable.

3. The "gurus" who've done their homework and research to achieve great sound quality don't like to share their hard-earned know-how. It's critical to their competitive advantage and critical to their pricing. In fact, creating a "mystique" by keeping things secret helps attract the afficionado buyer who craves something elusive and special - like the music itself that they love.

I'm not an economist nor a high-end hifi manufacturer. But I'm not stressed by the fact that there are few top-end brands. Same with sports cars. Enzo would turn in his grave if Ferrari marketed a people-carrier

BA

Good points all, and I do see where your coming from Bam. I still don't understand though if it were so easy to develop a Musical amp, why, in the evolution of the hi-fi industry, wouldn't another Nad or Rotel (only with greater product, evolution you know) blossom in the new decade , nevermind the past decade.

I just don't think it's so easy, starting with the invention of the Musical circuit.

regards,

dave

Dave,
I agree. It isn't easy.
In my experience, to achieve better performance than others requires superior insight. Achieving the insight takes a lot of dedication, cleverness, a good learning process a little luck and mostly sweat and tears! It also helps to do your homework and learn as much as possible from others. Keeping your ears open in more ways than one.
BAM

Ashley says

quote:

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the best measure we have for prat is our ears

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I think our ears are THE ONLY way to measure PRaT.

Bam,

I agree with you but these :

1. I think that if Stratovarius decided to mass produe his violins - the product didn't have the quality it had (and has now) because part of the quality of his product is the way he produced it.
as far as I know it can't be emulated even nowadays with all the "science" around.

2. Take mark Tucker testimony that Naim decides when a new product is ready for marketing by a group of few people (he mentioned their names) in Naim who are LISTENING to the equipment. He also stated that it seems that the success of Naim products is because this group taste matches the taste of Naim customers
(it is not a quote but just as I remember his words).

Arie

It seems that some are under the impression that high end Audio is truely expensive. I suspect that this, in my limited experience of the world of research, is not really the case. If you look at accurate scientific equipment where the kind tolerances required go way beyond the current (note current) mass production limits the costs are likely to be 6, 7 or more figures (sterling) and there aren't many pieces of hifi that cost that much.

However, when we come back down to earth and look at 'affordable' (lets say less the 10k) we have to make compromises and the compromises which least offend your ears are the ones you are likely to be most happy with.

I say if you can listen to the music and forget about the hifi your doing pretty well, and it doesn't matter if that takes a £10 walkman or a £20,000 set-up as long as you can afford it.

Matthew

Listening too hard can be very expensive

Thanks guys for a thought provoking thread. I avoided reading it until now because the title made me think it was another mana thread. Nick Cave, Michealangelo, Samuel Becket, and audio. That's more like it. Kind of like Herman Hesse's Glass Bead Game.

"I can't go on, I must go on, I'll go on." S. Becket.

This is the way I feel about upgrarding my system. Maybe my Godot is a nap 500.

dave

Matthew - I agree, hi-end home hi-fi is not expensive in comparison to research instruments. However, i would take this further and say compared to the equipment used in recording studios, sound labs and even the cost of new musical instruments spending only hudreds of pounds on a reproduction system is madness if you actually want it to sound like the original.

I've heard plenty of systems in nightclubs that have loads of PRaT but little else. This is not a criticism, i wouldn't want it any other way. I have had the privilige to work alongside some of the best drum and bass DJs in the country and have used one of the best systems in the world (at AWOL/Ministry for those who know). This had loads of PRaT and also some round earth qualities (it should do - it cost hundreds of thousands of GBP). PRaT can also be found (to a greater degree than an MF system) in some Sony mini systems i have heard.

Using my ears i can measure PRaT in all systems. I think it more likely that PRaT is traded by some manufacturers for detail, imaging and frequency extension. Another question would be - What do all of those PRaTTy amps that I have heard have in common.

Answer - They were probably all designed by people who REALLY like music.