All components by Naim ?

Is there a "better" system than Naim ? For me, no. However, "better" is a difficult word, and someone like Vuk, with a strong background in perception, is likely to offer a more complete appreciation of the concept "better."

As for a complete Naim system ourperforming one that is mix and match, my feeling is that in listening to a complete Naim system, properly installed and run in, you are hearing most completely what Naim intends. This is obviously not everyone's cup of tea--I hear lots of people call it "uncompromising" (which cuts both ways), while others believe that a single source system is the only way to go to get music.

Cheers,

Bob

Well this rumour is easily proven wrong IMO because the best Naim systems are those driven by a vinyl source such as the LP12. Naim does not make a turntable/cartridge so all the components cannot be Naim.

Paul

Regards P.

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because vinyl is crap!

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I'll take it that you are stirring. There is no doubt that the CDS2 is a fine music making machine. Will you be making the same statement when the next widely accepted music format replaces 16-bit CD?

To members of the forum at large

My mid-flight deck (LP12/Armageddon/Ittok/Lydian) trounces my mid-flight CDP (CD2) without question. Has anyone really compared a top flight LP deck to the CDS2 and formed a valid view of the differences?

James

Listening to my modest Linn axis/baisk/assak with
a valhala instead of the original power supply -
I don't think it is inferior to my CDI.

Naim don't manufacture a turntable because there is no need to make one (so I believe) the world is full with excellent machines and there is no need to add one to the list.

Arie

[This message was edited by Arie_Gur on SUNDAY 01 October 2000 at 23:03.]

I guess it's easier if you (like me) started collecting music seriously AFTER the invention of the CD.

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If Naim can produce what is arguably the best CD player in the world then how come they've never made a turntable?

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...because the market could/would never support it, due to (new) software availability.

Let's face it--pressings in the 80's (when I started collecting records) generally were quite bad, and subject to as much post-mastering quality-control issues, despite the efforts of the best record cutters in the industry.

Though I have a great turntable, I regret that many of my favorite recordings would require 45 RPM cutting to achieve the same dynamic range as a well-mastered CD (especially with electronic music), with an even shorter playing time...

If you've had the opportunity to work in the mastering domain, most of these things would make perfect sense, especially as a limited-edition vinyl run DONE RIGHT is hugely expensive compared to a well-done CD pressing.

Dave Dever, NANA

I hope I don't reopen an old debate, BTW I compared a CDSII (only three days warm-up) and a fully loaded Linned LP12 (though with an Archive I catridge) in both my system (it's all Linn, I must confess) and a friend's all american system, with the same results: CDSII has more dynamics and scale, sounds less compressed; LP12 is *much* more subtle and finely informative in almost every area - timing, tune, pitch, timbre, imaging, textures of instruments. IMHO vinyl remains definately superior in musical terms. It could be that in a different system (such as an all Naim one)things would be different, but I'm sincerely doubtful...

Cheers,
Paolo

But i got an ARO over a year ago, which dropped CD down to less than 5% of my listening, and I got a Karma a few eeks ago, which upped LP to about 95% of my listening - and as others have mentioned, Naim has not marketed a 'table.

That's because it isn't really a midflight deck - swap the Ittok for an Ekos (which is really a refined Ittok) and you're almost there with the vinyl front-end. The Ekos came out in the late 80s so your turntable represents about 35 years development after the introduction of the LP. The nature of the problems of 16/44 CD, however, has meant that only very recently, and with the very best power supplies and filters etc, has CD been able to stand alongside vinyl...which the CDS2 probably, with good software and a decent mains supply, can. And CD player development has only been in progress for 17 years. It would, of course, be pointless to develop it much further with much better technologies now available.

I have an LP12 Lingo/Aro/XX1-L, and a CDX/XPS, and probably 80% of my listening is CD. That's partly the availability of new discs, sure, but there's a kind of balance at that level of CD replay which vinyl doesn't really get.

Arie

There is no new classical on vinyl, but you can get most new pop: Moby, Madonna, Leftfield, U2, Portishead, Beth Orton, Björk, Smashing Pumpkins, Korn, Oasis, etc. "New" records by old farts like Steely Dan, Tom Waits and REM come out regularly as do even obscure indie things by bands like Mogwai, Bedhead and Hovercraft. Finally, there is also a lot of underground dance music that is only available on vinyl.

Not sure about new jazz, but almost any jazz record you could want comes in at least one good re-issued pressing and countless audiophile disasters. Classical re-issues are mostly a joke, unless you have antiquated, dogmatic notions about how nothing has surpassed American orchestras of the 60s and content yourself with French and Spanish encore tid-bits, along with the occasional butchered Beethoven.

Vuk.

Vuk:

I do not wish to be merely contradictory to stir you up but would you include the Reiner and Chicago reissues on RCA in this category, too? What about the London orchestras that are reissued or the Vienna Philharmonic recordings on Decca? Surely not all these are worthless, too. IMO, there are many classical reissues that are excellent and a bargain too compared with the cost of purchasing the originals. I would agree that not all are necessarily great or that all contain great music but only that many are quite worthwhile.

Paul

I can also recommend the classical and jazz one-sided 45rpm reissues by Classic. They are extraordinary and perhaps among the best ever produced in the vinyl medium for these categories.

I have heard both the CDS2 and fully-loaded LP12 in several complete Naim systems. Both are excellent. I could certainly live with either. The CDS2 was the first CD player that I felt matched or surpassed the qualities I admire in vinyl replay (I own a LP12). Only Linn's CD12 possibly compares and it is twice the money.

Paul

If you happen to recall my ratings of the top conductors of all time on the old forum, I had Reiner right near the top. What I am talking about is the pathetic selection--quantity and quality--of classical re-issues on vinyl. It seems to me that decisions are based on some type of "audiophile" reputation of a recording rather than the calibre of the performance. Consequently, it's easy top pick up a silly record of highlights like "The Reiner Sound," but no one seems interested in reviving his brilliant account of Beethoven's 9th. The listings in vinyl catalogues are very telling: one often sees a listing of conductor, label and composer, but no mention of the works!!!! Even better are things like "Martinon, French Music, EMI." The idiot audiophile with Japanese pressings of Dire Straits knows exactly what this is and he's the market. There is no way anyone could build even a tiny fraction of a respectable classical collection from what is available as "new" vinyl. For similar reasons, CD players and CDs are also essential for the full experience of what's worthwhile out there. I can't even imagine life without Herreweghe's account of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis or Harnoncourt's Schubert symphonies and these just can not be played on an LP12.

Vuk.

Can you address me please to the places in which
I can buy new vinyls ? Do they ship abroad ?

Do you have a catalog of new LP's ?

I Israel there are someplaces in which you can buy used LP's.

Arie

But the real treasure trove is in used vinyl - the prices of used classical are going down (except in the case of audiophile favorites), and it appears to be plentiful related to the demand.

www.boxman.co.uk and www.cdnow.com have pop/dance vinyl. The former has a lot more of it.

Vuk.

Ever heard of TRACKING ERROR?

I wouldn't buy a second hand LP unless I Knew the previous owners habits intimately!

By the way Vuk - Steely Dan did not release their most recent effort on vinyl - how much is that an endorsement!?

Regards P.

Thanks for the sites.

Arie

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Ever heard of TRACKING ERROR? I wouldn't buy a second hand LP unless I Knew the previous owners habits intimately!

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What does tracking error have anything to do with buying used LPs? All pivoted tonearms have tracking errors as the stylus is not at a perfect tangent to the microgroove across the entire playing surface. What I think you are referring to is "mistracking" and the damage that can occur to the microgrooves. Anyone would be able to hear a record badly damaged in this manner, and hence find a replacement or get a refund. The risk of consequential damage to a diamond stylus is minimal. The risk of buying used vinyl is no different to buying ANYTHING second-hand, CDs included. Committed vinyl nutters like Tony have record cleaning machines that restore the grubbiest LPs to new.

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Steely Dan did not release their most recent effort on vinyl - how much is that an endorsement!?

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If you are referring to their "Two Against Nature" album, you will find vinyl copies at Selectadisc.

Let's face it Pierre, when it comes to the subject of vinyl replay, you are woefully out of your depth. But this is only natural for one so ignorant. Only if you realised it .

James

A misaligned diamond vs centrifugal force driven through a piece of yielding material to me seems like a bad thing altogether and I have seen,and heard, the results.

At the time of it's release 2vN was NOT released on vinyl - I am a regular on the Dan forum and know this as FACT! and the reason? - I 'm not even gonna bother !

Twit

By the same token, there's a lot of pristine vinyl recordings of superb performances. A little discrimination goes a long way toward a high hit to miss ratio. Besides, at the prices, one can afford to throw away the mistakes.

Notice your body while listening to recorded music. I relax and get into the music, usually, with LP. I do not get into the music with CD. If you have an opposite reaction, your choice is clear.

Guys.

Don't forget who you are dealing with here: a bleach-blonde girlie-man who didn't know what records were until a dealer at a mega-store told him about the old days when diamonds shaved through the vinyl and million degree temperatures incinerated the slivers. This dealer then tossed a CD accross the shop floor, played the opening silence for Pierrette and made a sale without any music listening.

Pierrette, we are just not going to take you seriously while you hide behind an incomplete name and post transparent wind-ups (they are either transparent or, if you believe what you are writing, you really are the 13 year-old we all imagine).

Unfortunatley, "Philb" is in no position to argue, being part of the same boyband, so I'm going to "out" him: PHILIP BARRY.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on WEDNESDAY 04 October 2000 at 02:28.]