All components by Naim ?

Check these. They all ship overseas.

Acoustic Sounds: reissues from every label plus recent releases
http://www.acousticsounds.com/acoustic/catalog/index.html

Mosaic Records: jazz only/limited edition sets
http://www.mosaicrecords.com/

Audiophile International: new and used
http://www.audiophileusa.com/

good luck,

Paul

The listing above is from one of the sites Paul has recommended. A brilliant example of the state of re-issued classical vinyl. Not only are the works perfromed irrelevant but, in this case, so is the composer! Hey it's 45RPM on RCA Victor, what else do you need to know Mr. VPI-TNT?

Exterminate the savages.

Vuk.

Vuk:

I think you may be confusing this record, perhaps unfortunately titled by RCA in 1958 when first issued, with something else - I 'm not sure which one.

The "Reiner Sound" LP has the following pieces, complete without interruption or cuts:

Ravel: Rapsodie Espagnole
Raval: Pavan for a Dead Princess
Rachmaninoff: Isle of the Dead

Certainly you may, if you wish - in your opinion - dismiss the music as lightweight compared to Beethoven. Others would consider it worthy of being performed. I would think most major orchestras perform these pieces with considerable frequency. However, a record of "silly" highlights it certainly isn't.

The record was re-released by Classic as it is considered a collectors item by both those who seek Reiner performances and for the quality of the recording. Original copies in excellent condition would sell for at least several hundred US$ thus making the reissue at $30US a bargain. (By the way in my experience the Classic reissues surpass the qualities of the original in dynamics and PRT but not in warmth and "air" so desired by "round-earth" audiophiles. The 45rpm version is considerable better than both those at 33in all ways.)

Paul

I’m beginning to be convinced that you don’t know what you are talking about. The RCA reissue conducted by Kondrashin contain two works only:

Tchaikovsky: Capriccio Italian
Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espagnol

Again this is NOT a highlights album. If you don’t like the music – fair enough – but don’t damn it with your sweepingly negative comments implying that it is worthless. Judging from your comments about this record I am sure that you have never heard it. It actually has been repeatedly praised for its performance (and not just by audiophiles).

Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Byron on WEDNESDAY 04 October 2000 at 04:34.]

Exactly who are the savages here? You have condemned both these works by Tchaikovsky (perhaps there are grounds for this actually!) and Rimsky-Korsakov as "irrelevent". No, they are not Beethoven, we all know - you don't need to remind us. And Kondrashin is not Furtwangler, whom I'm sure would never dirty his baton with such trifles. (Or did he...?hmmm)

Paul

Thought I would check for you - but you probably knew anyway - Furtwangler did not record any Rimsky-Korsakov but did record Tchaikovsky's last three symphonies.
Check the complete discography of Furtwangler at http://www.fornax.hu/wfsh/disco.html

Guess he thought Tchaikovsky wasn't all bad or perhaps he was trying to demonstrate how irrelevant he was!!

Well, I've had enough of this. I certainly don't know how you can take the time to post as much as you do - what with infopoop crapping out all the time, it has taken far too long to post these few messages. I certainly prefer to listen to music/records than argue about their merits. I'm sure you do, too.

cheers,

Paul

quote:

---

Exactly who are the savages here?

---

The savages are audiophiles and audiophile record sellers who list recordings by label above all and consider the composer of a work and the work itself as something irrelevant and not worth disclosing! Surely you see how ridiculous this is?!?

Vuk.

quote:

---

Reiner and RCA
Vuk: Regarding RCA LSC2323
I’m beginning to be convinced that you don’t know what you are talking about. The RCA reissue conducted by Kondrashin contain two works only:
Tchaikovsky: Capriccio Italian
Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espagnol

---

Paul.

It's all very clear in your posting, but the FUCKING catalogue doesn't specify the works!!!! I wasn't merely using a shorthand but replicating the ONLY information provided. This is what I am talking about, not the merits of what's on the record, but the ignorance of the people selling them and the intended audience--I'm hardly ignorant of the recorded classical repertoire, yet these listings are virtually meaningless to someone like me. I have telephoned these companies on more than one occasion and had a hell of a time finding out what works were being performed on the records. It's for the bullshit collector who has read a Stereophile review and memorised that RCA 3452672 is something he should have in his stack of LPs all packed in expensive outer sleaves and played only for 30 seconds to evaluate the quality of the pressing.

Vuk.

Regards P.

Having said that, I do own the 180g reissue of "The Reiner Sound", and I think the music on it, as well as the performance and recording, are all superb. It still contains the best "Isle of the Dead" ever put on record.

Ross

Please explain.

Arie

but got kyril/tchaikowsky with van cliburn, rca red label, US pressing.

my other copies are argerich and ogdon, and van cliburn knocks em dead. real percussive playing, whihc is quite different

only played it once though

I have an idea of what Vuk is talking about.

When I was in school and building my first hi-fi and record collection, I spent a great deal of time at Myer-Emco (locals will know the place - reputable in its day but now its an upscale Circuit City). The Happy Days were when the new No-Fi releases came in. My friend and I would *each* buy one even tho we shared records and lived two doors away.

We were clueless about music, enjoyed the hi-fi hobby thing, and were content to let No-Fi (or whoever) dictate what we should be listening to.

And I'm not trying to get into a debate about whether Mo-Fi makes good records or has good taste in music. I still have many of these and *do* enjoy them from time to time (especially the Reiner Also Sprauch Zarathustra with the Chicago Symphony).

Its the mindset I was in at the time of purchase that is disturbing and that the catalogues, as Vuk mentions, play to this mindset in their manner of listing.

Oh, the 180 gm/45RPM thing is about the weight of the record (heavier=more vinyl=better?) and the speed. 45 RPM records allow more groove travel for a given interval of time in the music and can sound fabulous when made with care. Seem more dynamic to me

- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it

Thanks for encapsulating what I was trying to say--I really thought it was obvious and was shocked to read Paul's replies.

Paul.

Yes indeed, these records are good: I own the bloody Reiner Sound one, though I wish it didn't have this silly and uninformative title. Please see above for what I was on about.

Phil.

Thanks for the full name!

Pierre.

Nothing to say to you from this point on until you demonstrate you're not a troll.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on WEDNESDAY 04 October 2000 at 19:49.]

Boy band? From someone who's racked up 42 years on this earth Vuk -thanks for the compliment!

If you care to Email me I'll explain why I am incognito.

Regards P.- man of mystery and suspense

Just a wild guess but you wouldn't be related to the Peter Taylor who was barred from the forum for constant inflamatory and abusive postings would you?

Matthew

Vuk:

I beg to disagree with your continued assumptions. IMO, Vuk, the manufacturers of these LPs are undoubtedly fully aware that people who buy these records are usually informed collectors who are already aware of what they are buying and the music contained on the LP. All of these records are quite well known amongst collectors of LPs. RCA releases from the 60's and DECCA from the same period are all very well known to informed collectors. That is why the originals cost so much. They are NOT selling to the general public - only 500 copies are actually pressed - but to collectors who either wish to purchase a highly regarded release (which it seems you were unaware of) at 45 RPM, which as David Devers said above is the best way to realize dynamics on a vinyl LP.

Vuk, how do you know who buys these records and for what reason? To accuse those who buy these records as being ignorant is perhaps unjustified. When I purchase these LPs I can assure you that I know exactly which pieces are being performed. If not I would look it up. I certainly wouldn't start making unwarranted assumptions about anyone's ignorance nor that they read Stereophile to determine their choices.

You also do not need to stoop to vulgarisms to make your point. It doesn't add anything to your argument.

Paul

I think you said it very well in your message: these records are aimed at collectors. I don't collect records, I buy them to listen to the music they contain. I think you do as well and your obviously enormous experience has led to a knowledge of the catalogue numbers. Surely though you can recognise the absurdity of listing records by label (which ALL these catalogues do) and then failing to specify conductors and/or composers and/or the works performed! It all looks to me very much like the organisation system of an audiophile rather than a music lover. I don't know any classical music enthusiast who structures his decision to buy something in this this way. Do people actually sit and contemplate: "hmmm, I think I'd like something on Teldec today"?

I'll also add that what is available, though very well disguised sometimes, in these catalogues is hardly representative of what are aknowledged in critical cirlces to be the great performances. That's because it's not about performances, but recordings. There is hardly anything, played by the Berlin or Vienna Philharmonic, the two greatest orchestras, conducted by Klemeperer or Furtwängler, the two greatest conductors, or composed by Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, Bruckner or Shostakovich. There is plenty, however, from the 2 best tape-recorders of the 1960s. How can it have anything to do with a genuine love of classical music?

Paul, I am not criticising you (or swearing at you). I don't think you're anything like the typical person this stuff is aimed at, though I do think you should consider getting a genuine CD player to properly hear the second half of recorded classical music and not rely on Mr. Reiner so much.

Vuk.

Vuk, Have you heard any Celibidache?

Regards.

Phil

Unfortunately I do not have the financial resources to be a collector of deep groove Blue Notes, but the couple I have are amazing sounding, and even audiophile reissues do not come close. I think the same is true of many of the classical audiophile favorites.

I would say I have a lot more sympathy for record collecting than equipment collecting (though I do think anyone with a substantial investment in records should have a stereo of at least Rega or Thorens/NAD/Rotel level and it pains me how many don't).

As to these audiophile reissues, many are sold to relatively uninformed newbies. Many others are sold to people with serious music credentials. I am on the phonogram list, and every time a Shaded Dog or Mercury comes up, there are often quite critical assessments of the quality of performance AND sound, and nearly always give a rundown of favorite performances. Recently there have been postings of favorite DGs, favorite Decca Phase Fours, favorite Columbia Masterworks--so all audiophiles do not focus on audiophile labels. So don't be so quick to stereotype, Vuk. These guys are just as serious about music as you or I.

--Eric

You may well be right that the listings are directed at "audiophiles", hence the listings by label. However, I don't think that these records are exclusively audiophile in the sense that they are only important for their sonics. There are many excellent performances among them that are worthy in that respect alone.

The three principle labels of the 50's/60's were RCA, Decca and EMI. These three recorded most of the big name artists and orchestras of that period. RCA had contracts with several US orchestras and some of the finest artists of that period includng Heitetz, Reiner, Munch, the Chicago SO, and the Boston SO. Decca and EMI, especially the latter had contracts with many major orchestras and artists living in Europe. These included the various London orchestras, and included Vienna - there have been reissues of the Vienna PO. (The Berlin PO was under contract to DG although there have been a few reissues of the Berlin PO by Speakers Corner.) It cannot be questioned IMO that many of these recordings are of truly great orchestras and peformers, who were often at the peak of their skills. For this reason alone these records should continue to be available to the public. However, perhaps due to the infancy of stereo at that time, microphone techniques were simple as well. This changed by the 70's when multi-microphone techniques began to prevail. Many who hear these early stereo recordings, including myself, regard these records as among the finest of the art of recording. It may just have been pure luck. IMO performances, particularly in the late 70's, are less distinguished by both performance and recording. The introduction of digital was the death-knell of this era of recording.

Your admiration for Furtwangler - which is fully justified IMO - is perhaps in part for the individuality of his performances. Recordings of the 70's onward have less of that incredible individuality that Furtwangler brought to his interpretations. Who is the equal of Furtwangler today?

Original Furtwangler recordings sell for astronomical prices for this reason alone - not for sonics. You might even agree that many modern-day performances have a "sameness" about them that contrasts sharply with those with Furtwangler. Only the introduction of period instruments has offset this somewhat.

It is my feeling that readers of this forum who wish to discover these recordings in a vinyl format should be encouraged to do so through these "audiophile" reissues - not discouraged. They are relatively cheap compared to the originals which sell for sometimes ridiculous prices (actually prices of rare labels such as Urania sometimes sell for far more than RCA/Decca/EMI). Companies such as Classic, Speakers Corner, and Testament should be praised, not criticized, for providing the opportunity to discover what some consider to be one of the finest periods of the recording arts (and in the original format - LP) in reissues which are equal in most respects and sometimes surpassing the original.

PS My apologies for going on so long about matters with which you may be completely familiar.

Paul

I am only talking about classical. I don't really have a clue about jazz recordings and pressings.

Paul.

What started the ball rolling here was a rant of mine about how newly pressed classical vinyl is sold/pressed. The audiophile/collector catalogues that I am forced to deal with really piss me off. I don't disagree that there are some excellent performances in there, I am simply trying to point out my frustration at the obvious audiophile element in this which limits the available repertoire mainly to a set of 60s American orchestras and conductors, while ignoring so many great performances. How on earth can someone justify re-issuing the EMI (originally) recording of Massanet's "Le Cid" and not the Klemperer Mahler 2nd? Whoever made that decision should be exterminated. The selction procedure simply does not represent a proper cross-section of what is worth owning. I wish there was more variety, better descriptions and perhaps different records from time to time: it seem the be the same set of 250 items every year, in every catalogue. I think I'll soon memorise all the numbers.

As for your condemnation of CD recordings, you should pop by my place for a demonstration if you're ever out East. It's with classical musical above all that I find even a mere CDX, with the right recording, can teach any turntable a thing or two. Add an XPS and it's neck-and-neck with almost everything AND you get to enjoy the last 20 years of recorded music, which I don't understand how you can dismiss so easily. Sure we don't have another Furtwängler right now, but there are certain recordings by Giulini, Karajan (yes, even him), Wand, Herreweghe, Abbado (yes, even him), Chailly, Harnoncourt, Haitink and others that are similarly inspired. Then there is the whole business of music before Mozart, which comes almost exclusively in the manner of Brahms before 1980.

BTW--back to vinyl: although the Decca (London) stuff I have is very good, I'd warn people to stay away from Chesky, after I wasted $35USD on the Horenstein Brahms 1st, only to discover that my Chesky CD version better, as was a $0.50 used copy on a budget label from the 70s.

Vuk.

P.S. I just got this in an e-mail message from "Red Trumpet":
VICS-1424 Reiner Strauss ($26.99)
LSC-2147 Festival Arts Quartet ($26.99)
LSC-2565 Romeo and Juliet ($26.99)

quote:

---

It's with classical musical above all that I find even a mere CDX, with the right recording, can teach any turntable a thing or two.

---

Another statement that could only be made by a Rega owner.

Ross

I wasn't commenting on Rega turntables, but all turntables I have heard, including the LP12, in its various configurations.

It's quite possible that my superior CDP/amplification shows all of this up more obviously.

BTW--Tony Lonorgan also prefers the P9 to an LP12 and tends to share your pessamistic view (and Paul's) of CD playback. Once again, the common feature is that none of you own what I would consider an acceptable player (mine just barely is). Also, please note that it is with certain CDs (and I stress it's only a small handful), that the CDX seems to do things TTs can not. The main competition comes from CDX/XPS and I don't believe you have heard that.

Vuk.

All I can say is that I have spent some time with the CDX and that it - as well as my Meridian players - were clearly inferior to the LP12 in every respect (except surface noise).

Ross