Academic qualifications

A nice synopsis Mick.

If I could afford it - I would retire tomorrow. I am only 39. I am in a job I like, in a company I like and earn a decent amount of money.

Spending quality time watching my family grow up is my ultimate ideal.

It is such a pity that living nicely costs money......

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Jay

My comment on working is for mugs, was a flippant throwaway.

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That's what I was pointing out Mick

Maybe you need a break?

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My comment on working is for mugs, was a flippant throwaway

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I think this was understood, though it is nice to see you stand up and say so Mick

I (like many) enjoy what I do.....however it IS possible to have too much of a good thing!!!, or rather, it would also be nice to have more free time , since I also enjoy the things I do outside work

Laurie S

Historically I left school at 16 and went to work in ICI Paint labs in glorious Slough. They and a few subsequent employers forked out for part time day release to do the old fashioned tech college education while you work.
I never got a degree though I finally managed an HNC. It never held me back. I have had a very interesting technical based career in the semiconductor industry which has been fun because of the fast pace of change.
I have just reached the big 60. I am still working because I enjoy what I do. Part of the fun is contesting with the younger bright engineers that work for me on our ability to think and create. It ensures the old brain stays in training, trying to keep up with them.

However I must admit some physcologoical effect seemed to appear with the advent of 60. I am not as inclined to go on working as I was a year ago. I realise you do get tired of work even when it is challenging, ever changing and enjoyable. I may become one of those terrible people who have Consultant written on their business card, after all 40+ years of experience must be worth something.

The point is I learnt as I worked. I was not isolated in some protected University environment for 6 odd years (+ 2 at school). Those 8 years made me much more savvy to the harsh realities of the working world and taught the ability to communicate with all levels of skill down through to the hard physical laboring end of work. I subsequently have seen generations emerge from university in their mid to late 20's with superb paper qualifications who are absolute prats when it comes to the interpersonal and management skills they need to get on in the industrial world. They learn this over time but it is painfull to watch.

regards
GEOFF

The boring old fart

Tom

When I joined Mensa, I scored 150. The pass rate being 148.

Geoff

I think your attitude to life changes with age.

Between 15 and 28, you think primarily of sex.

28 to 52, it is about climbing up the greasy pole, the aquisition of goods, money and power.

From your early 50's, you want to see more of your grandchildren and also more of the world.

Possessions seem to possess you, so they become less important.

The first thing we are going to do when Mrs Mick retires, is to take a one way ticket to Northern India and just spend a couple of months travelling around, exploring and aiming south, to end up in Goa.

Then we we fly back.

There is so much to see and so little time to do it.

Work provides the means but denies you the time.

So it is all of a balancing act.

Regards

Mick

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Possessions seem to possess you, so they become less important.

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Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Titter

Unless you class eyesight, bladder control, joint freedom and hearing as possessions.

The joys we have to look forward to.......

Hi

There seems to be a suggestion that study at a university ought to be "used" for something. Well, buggre that! I say that the benefits and freedoms we enjoy through democracy and capitalism should provide us with the freedom to seek education for the sake of education.

Learn philosophy if you want and if it interests you. Classics may only get you a job teaching Classics - but who cares?

I spend my life thinking and feeling. I want to find both things INTERESTING!

My aim in life is to become wise and to learn and practice those qualities that are associated with a gentleman. I like a good debate because I believe that an argument is a form of inquiry. I have been to university because I can find no better place to learn how to think about the things that interest me. The qualification is a marker of my progress. I'm not there to win a degree though.

I like your posts Tom.

And thanks for the email and attachments Roy. Its very kind of you to take the time.

Deane

I am still in shock after finding out that Mick has not only renounced wordly goods but has decided to take the Hippie bus to Katmandhu before heading down to Goa with Mrs Mick for 24 hour hardcore trance party on the beach.

Matthew

As I understand it, the Ravens Standard Progressive Matrices is a more modern and non-culturally-biased (sic?) method for testing intelligence. It is supposed to be administered without time pressure, the testee stopping when they can complete no more matrices, and the results are in the form of percentile. Most people fall between the 25th and 75th percentile. The RPSM tests ability to deal with entirely abstract ideas. The ability to deal with abstracts is a mark of intelligence because it requires forming conceptualisations into propositions.

But it is suggested that because the RSPM reads from left to right it could weight against those people whose language reads from right to left.

It is results from the RSPM that have shown an upward trend in the past few decades. Much has been made of this but the fellow who devised the test thinks this may just be an artifact of the trend in technology. For instance, the rise of the graphical user interface and the spread of widely understood symbols that arise from the ubiquity of the GUI.

Deane

I think its all bollocks.

Deane

Matthew

We will be staying in good hotels sipping gin and tonics etc.

I am flogging off pens and shotguns but buying fewer but better ones if that makes sense.

Fear not, you will still have plenty of ammo to criticise me.

Love

Mick

Tom

Things have moved on since I joined.

I lived in Leamington Spa at the time and drove to their HQ in Wolverhampton.

The test consisted of 5 papers and took about 3 hours.

Life was much simpler in those days.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by Deane F:
I think its all bollocks.

Deane

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Deane,

I'm sooo glad you said that.

It saved me the trouble

Regards,

JonR

My greatest achievement academically was passing the Master of Wine exam, something only 260 people have done since 1953.

Rather like Deane I wanted the challenge and to attempt the highest professional qualification in my (accidentally) chosen field. But it does make me more, er, "bankable". Although generally people do run the risk of pretentiousness by putting the initials "MW" after their name to maximise this effect. Having Jilly Goolden's breasts would possibly help even more, although not me personally.

I did a degree in Graphic Design, but my timing was very poor. When I started the world did lettering with a pen (which I learned), or at a pinch, Letraset - anyone else remember that? When I finished the world did lettering with an Apple Mac (which I only touched on, as the earliest hardware was beyond the finances even of the Scottish education system). Nevertheless I do not regret it one bit.

Of all the stuff I did at school, in my working life no-one has ever asked me if I can, could or would: solve a quadratic equation, date the battle of Crecy, explain the principals of a blast furnace, or find meaning in a Ted Hughes poem or Henry IV part 1. I doubt I could do any of those things now. But I can still remember that I once learned them. I am most indebted to the best French teacher in the world who made me love the language and the learning thereof - the exam results were a mere aside. I also do not regret the study of Latin (although I did at the time) as it gives me a greater ability to spell correctly than most. Even people with humungous IQ scores it seems.

The best learning, it seems to me, is learning undertaken for the sake, satisfaction and fun of it. Not that which is done to increase a salary, avoid working for mugs, or to fulfil misplaced government quotas.

Cheers

Rod

"The best learning, it seems to me, is learning undertaken for the sake, satisfaction and fun of it."

Yep. I heartily agree. By far the most likable quality of various people, for me, is their sense of curiosity. It defines humanity to a great extent. If we are not curious about our fellows and what they think, the world, our deeds, and if we have not a vision that is formed and changed by our curiosity, then we are lost.

A sense of irony is a great help, as well.

Deane

Isn't it ironic that we gain qualifications in order to begin our chosen career, and then spend our working lives gaining the experience to do the job and realising that our qualification gave us very little useful knowledge. We should really sit an exam at retirement to see how we did overall - but then of course it wouldn't serve any purpose.
Funny old world, eh?!

Quite so Rasher. Honours degree in Life Sciences was required for my first step on the ladder - totally useless - I didn't know nuffink but I guess they have to set the bar somewhere. I think it's wrong, but it's an imperfect world.

Cheers

Harry

Gosh, what a can of worms!

Okay, to start with let's get the background out of the way. 10 0s', 4 A's and a degree in Social Policy and Sociology. Of course, my proudest failure was O level music!!!

I am currently back studying and succeeding with various IT qualifications and can heartily endorse those comments about the best learning coming from a sense of curiosity.

In the 20 years since I graduated "I have had little reason to use much from any of my qualifications" is the sort of glib phrase that could easily have slipped off my lips. Then, I look at my step-daughter and I realise just how much I use and how little she is being given in the current education system.

There is a deal of truth in the suggestion that we have longer queues in shops nowadays because people can't count!

Equally, my partner changed careers over the past decade having come from a fairly low starting point in terms of qualifications. Whilst she was at University as a mature student she was literally the only person on the degree course who could spell. She spent time at both Sheffield and Manchester so it was hardly an isolated perspective.

Nowadays I manage people with way more qualifications than myself and yet they cant spell, frequently can't count and, worst of all, they cannot understand what other people are saying.

It seems to me that where we are really suffering nowadays is from the power of employers (yes, you did read that right). The concept of vocational training and schools not turning out people fit for the jobs that were there has gained even greater currency over the past 30 years and is fundamentally flawed in many respects.

I would not want to pretend my degree was hard but my O and A levels were at least four or five times as hard as anything a British child has to sit nowadays and yet still we make them easier and more vocationally related. Since when have employers had any idea of what they want/need? The same people complaining about vocational qualifications now are the ones who demanded them years ago. What good has it done them or the kids who are semi-literate/numerate as a consequence?

I firmly believe that the base of learning is to learn by rote. Indeed, I only began to make real progress on my IT studies when I realised that I was going to have to sit on the bus and simply learn certain things off by heart.

When was the last time your child gave you the impression they had learnt anything off by heart?

You may say "Busted lyrics!". Ask them to write them out. Try not to come back to this forum too dejected.

Mike

PS: Hope you enjoyed by middle-aged semi-literate random rant!!!

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We should really sit an exam at retirement to see how we did overall

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Noway-Jose.

Rasher, I note that you say it would'nt serve any purpose but then when did exams ever serve a purpose other than to give the poor people taking them a nervous breakdown.

I remember back to this whole thing especially in higher education where you boned up to sit 4 hour exams which were pigs to answer, then after retired to the Pub to compare notes which did you no good at all because everybody else read the question differently than you did and you then spend six weeks thinking you have failed miserably only to find you passed.

Howver the real bummer in all this is the act of answering the questions for the exam wipes the knowledge from your brain cells. A week later you could not have answewred half the questions again.

But then as you point out since you never need it again it is an exercise in futility.

regards
GEOFF

The boring old fart

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:
There is a deal of truth in the suggestion that we have longer queues in shops nowadays because people can't count!

Equally, my partner changed careers over the past decade having come from a fairly low starting point in terms of qualifications. Whilst she was at University as a mature student she was literally the only person on the degree course who could spell. She spent time at both Sheffield and Manchester so it was hardly an isolated perspective.

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My spelling is useless but it didn't hold me back - nor should it have. OK if I was studing english/literature/languages ect... it would have been a short course for me. But I think this is, with respect, a gross oversimpliication (sp?) - at least I can count - well, to 20 anyway.

In the 60s I was branded as lazy and/or stupid (I probably still am) but nowadays it transpires that I'm slightly dyslexic - I suppose if I had taken any notice of anyone back then, at least I'd be an expert at digging holes in the ground, or similar....

Whilst I'm not defending an education system that lets some people leave school with weak numbers and spelling, it's not as simple as that is it? Our daughter could read, write and count pretty good (for her age) before she started school.

Like you said - can of worms and no mistake.



Harry

Finially some good stuff emerging again. Quite right Geoff, most exams are a waste of time. It wasn't until I got ot undergraduate level that they were any use at all. At last the chance to question, argue and take a position based on reasoning and research - no more memory tests and regirgetation (sp again?). Many people who fall over at O and A level do just fine at degree level if they can get in. Not surprising IMO.

Cheers

Harry

I once was part of a small group of engineers employed to start up a new specialist unit for a large company.

As it got going we needed to employ cleanroom assistants. The job profile was for young people who could understand the discipline required to work in a cleanroom, read and understand technical instructions and, after training, act on their own intiative using their judgement.

With this in mind we chose to ask for "A Levels" as a minimum qualification then sat back to await the CV's. When they arrived the first one off the pile was dissapointing. The english used was atrocious with mistakes in grammar and spelling and with poor expression due mainly to a vocabulary restricted to very simple words.
This CV was rejected, but then more followed just like it and it became apparent that an awfull lot of them were just as bad.

In the end we gave up trying to sort potential employees by their CV's. After weeding out the ones that were the very worst we just brought the others in and interviewed them. This was a revelation. There were some with great potential who we ended up employing who would have been rejected based on their paper CV's.

The fact that we were a small start up doing something new, and we had a genuine desire to employ local people in an attempt to help boost a poor local area economy, gave us the patience to do all the interviewing involved and it paid off BUT the young folks we ended up employing would have been lost before they started if they had sent their CV's to a big company who just rejected applicants on the basis of their written responses.

I do believe that dislexyia is more prevalent than people often realise. One of my sons suffers from it and went thru' his teenage education just before the system began to properly recognise the need to take account of it. He was always great at maths (it's logical) but lousy at english and word spelling (totally illogical). The system began to improve as more and more use of PC's and acceptance of spell checking in word processor software gained ground. BTW my son is now a successfull Project Engineer because his inate logical thinking and practical skill shone thru' and overcame the written expression problems stemming from his dislexyia. he has no trouble expressing himself now. The knowledge that he can fall back on a PC spell checker has freed him from the fear of mis-spelling and he now uses a full vocabulary of words when writing reports.

regards
GEOFF

The boring old fart

My wife has passed several degrees on various subjects. She is not what most people would identify immediately as a swot as she is the mainstay and pivot of her social circle and is rather too much a party animal to be honest. It has been noted that people are disbeliving and not a little miffed that she is so good at passing exams with minimal effort and hardly any attendance to the courses, as she can generally appear wild and scatty.
But that is just the point: What she is particularly good at is understanding what is being asked of the course and the requirements of the exam. She works as a freelance writer from anything to holiday brochures to web sites for McLaren racing team. She has no knowledge of what she is writing about, but researches it and gives what is required - very successfully I might add. Reading her stuff you would think she was an authority on the subject. She has no real knowledge of the subjects she has passed, but approaches the passing of the exam as a task and won't get distracted by trying to learn the subject and passing on knowledge. A good memory and good writing skills and giving them what they want to hear is the key. Unsurprisingly she can't do maths subjects at all!
Bloody clever skill though!
Makes me envious.

Rasher - CSE Social Studies (car counting)

OK, Rasher. So she's a rocket scientist. But can she make a dovetail joint, or tongue and groove like you, me and sean can ?

I rest my case.