Should the Swiss Seriously Comment on €uropean Politics ?

No I think they should shut up, they will not join so they should have no say. They can then get on with hiding Nazi gold from WW2, laundering drug money and helping tax cheats

Just to set the record straight : Switzerland has a number of bilateral agreements with the E.U in a number of fields - including, recently, the ones covering freedom of movement and to work. These agreements are like little "chunks" of limited membership in the E.U with respect to certain matters. And they are quite numerous. So : on the issues covered by these agreements, the Swiss are entitled to their say. Sorry !

But it is also true that the Swiss are excruciatingly slow to take the decision to join. They have a toe in the water approach that, combined with the difficulty to reach a consensus around that question, and the complexity of the Swiss political proceess (which requires to painstakingly build a consensus on every matter, however trivial or important), painfully draws out the process.

The voting on the matter is split along demographical lines : the French and Italian parts are massively in favor of joining the E.U, the German does not. The Swiss-Germans are the most numerous, so they have the biggest political clout. What they vote goes, and this was confirmed recently again in a referendum on the matter. Matters have been worsened by the rise in power of a right wing ultra-conservative, isolationist and xenophobic party led by Christian Blocher, who had to be admitted in the government coalition to respect the political will of the people. This is does not reflect well on the Swiss.

I am convinced, however, as are many political commentators, that this is just a phase. The overall thinking and the historical thrust of things will result, sooner or later, in Switzerland joining the E.U. For all the procrastination and intense quarrelling on the matter, Switzerland has been inching towards membership, and the momentum will eventually build enough to push the whole thing over. It is just a matter of time. Swiss time, that is, ie. very slow. Caution is a national trait, and that will not change overnight ! But if the Swiss are cautious, they are also realistic and pragmatic. Staying out of the Union is costing them way too much, and this cost will only grow as Switzerland becomes progressively isolated. The majority will eventually realize this.

Edouard S.

Edouard

Your written English is fabulous.

kind regards

Ross

Thanks !

Edouard S.

Technically since the UK has not opted to join the Euro & the exchange rate mechanism should they not be disallowed from any input to legislation specific to the Euro currency?



"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"

Not to mention the fact that even on matters on which they are fully integrated, they are still entitled to the Thatcher "I want my money back" British rebate ! As a result the British financial contribution to the E.U is not proportionate to it's actual economic weight.

Edouard S.

quote:

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Originally posted by Edouard S.:
... Staying out of the Union is costing them way too much, and this cost will only grow as Switzerland becomes progressively isolated. The majority will eventually realize this.

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Edouard,

Your post was very interesting and quite educational with regard to Swiss politics.

However, the sentence above caught my interest. What evidence is there for saying "Staying out of the Union is costing them way too much", particularly in view of the fact that Switzerland seems to do rather better, economically, than most of the rest of Europe and also in view of the number of bilateral agreements that they already have with the E.U ?

Steve M

And Swiss railways have a reputation second to none!

JR

They will happily re-name their Champagne too ?

[/QUOTE]
What evidence is there for saying "Staying out of the Union is costing them way too much", particularly in view of the fact that Switzerland seems to do rather better, economically, than most of the rest of Europe and also in view of the number of bilateral agreements that they already have with the E.U ?

Steve M[/QUOTE]

It is true that Switzerland is doing well, but this is despite the fact they are penalized by not being in the Union, rather then because of it. As such, they do not benefit from all the commercial agreements between European Union countries. They are left out of the running for major contracts in other European countries, in particular public procurement contracts. They do not benefit from many of the mandatory commercial advantages that E.U countries have to grant each other.

This is not a problem for the big boys, the large multinational and very successful Swiss companies who operate in the pharmaceutical, chemical, engineering and food industries, or of course the ones from the financial and the insurance sector as well as all the niche luxury market oriented ones (the watch industry for instance). These companies have a sufficient grip on the market they are into to do very well indeed. However, Swiss medium and especially small sized companies just can't compete on an equal footing with their similar sized European competitors. This problem is compounded by the fact that the Swiss interior market is, in many respects, very protected and, to a certain degree, an isolated one. It is the case in agriculture, which is heavily subsidized, meaning that the Swiss pay to maintain an agricultural sector that would otherwise be squeezed out of the market by European companies, and resulting in outrageously high prices on many products for consumers. Other sectors of the domestic market are not subsidized, but have thrived on Switzerland's relative isolation, resulting in a several small and medium size companies hogging a somewhat captive market and imposing very high prices on the consumers. This pushes the wages up, and does make for a relatively high standard of living, as everyone and everything is expensively paid. But it has drawbacks. Production costs are staggering, making it all the more difficult for Swiss companies to be competitive internationally. There are other drawbacks too. One example is the pharmaceutical sector, in which several Swiss companies are among the world's leaders, and whose products are sold, in Switzerland, at a much higher price then in other countries. It's called market segmentation, and it's a rotten deal for Swiss consumers, because everyone (including European companies) milks the Jesus out of them, without the counterweights that a totally open and europeanized market would bring. Getting back to the small and medium sized companies, this situation allows several not so efficient ones to survive, all the while making it hard for potentially more competitive ones to make it, both domestically and nationally. Ultimately, everyone suffers from this.

And sometimes it's not only the small companies that are handicapped by not being in the E.U. A prime example of this is the spectacular downfall of Swissair, due to in part to mismanagement and delusions of grandeur, to be sure, but also in no small amount to the fact that, Switzerland not being in the E.U, Swissair was shut out of the juicy time slots they needed in European airports to survive, and which they would have been entitled to had Switzerland been in the E.U.

Also, doing business with E.U countries means constantly having to comply with decisions that do have financial costs attached to them (product regulations and specifications, for instance, standardization issues), but without having their say about them.

Another problem is the labour force. Switzerland needs working hands, and very strict immigration policies and very high wages make for employers turning to black market labour, meaning that whole swaths of the economy (construction, restaurants/hotels) depend on an underpaid/overworked underclass of illegal citizens to survive. This may change now with the recent labour related bilateral agreements

Last but not least, not being in the E.U and being sometimes seen as distant and snotty makes for a lack of political clout and subjects Switzerland to backlashes. For instance, Switzerland's recent bids for hosting the winter Olympic games have been ignored by the authorities in the matter for no clear reasons other then the fact that the Swiss are made to understand that they just have to foot the bill for their isolation. At least, that's the way things are analyzed here.

Please forgive this lengthy and pompous exposé! By the way, I am by no means an expert on the subject, and I may be wrong on some points. I am just stating things as they are often perceived from here!

Edouard S.

Here in Sweden (a member of the EU, but not the Euro "project") we had a public election a year ago on the subject of us joining the Euro or not.

During the campaining booth sides tried to convince us voters that, if we didn't vote the "right" way, Sweden would be thrown back to the dark ages. They even managed to accuse each other of being Nazis!

One fierce pro Euro person was a well known brewery owner. For tax reasons his company is controlled from Lichtenstein. Who don't have Euro but uses Swiss France as their currency! Why should he comment on Euro?

JohanR

Edouard S

Your comments on equality of acces to contracts in other countries appears at a rather oppertune time - yesterday a report was issued in the UK saying that there is a large amount of national protectionism taking place in the awarding of contracts in the EU - France, Spain and Italy were mentioned as being especially guilty of ensuring that their own national companies got the pick of the work.

So being part of the EU is no benefit - it just increases the size of your disappointment

Derek

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quote:

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Edouard S

Your comments on equality of acces to contracts in other countries appears at a rather oppertune time - yesterday a report was issued in the UK saying that there is a large amount of national protectionism taking place in the awarding of contracts in the EU - France, Spain and Italy were mentioned as being especially guilty of ensuring that their own national companies got the pick of the work.

So being part of the EU is no benefit - it just increases the size of your disappointment

Derek

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Amazin coincidence eh Delboy, we'll be callin you Trig 2 soon John.

FRitz Von Swisschampagneisredwine

quote:

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Edouard S

Your comments on equality of acces to contracts in other countries appears at a rather oppertune time - yesterday a report was issued in the UK saying that there is a large amount of national protectionism taking place in the awarding of contracts in the EU - France, Spain and Italy were mentioned as being especially guilty of ensuring that their own national companies got the pick of the work.

So being part of the EU is no benefit - it just increases the size of your disappointment

Derek

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Yes, I read about that today, something about phony appeal for tenders being held and that only something like 15 or 20 % of all public procurement contract appeals were published in the official E.U journal.

Goes to show that protectionism is almost impossible to curb. And the question of whether it should be is a debatable one. Of course industrial countries as a whole, and especially the United States, are the most vocal about the need to break down commercial barriers ie. allow them to access and suck the blood of fragile developping countries economy, all the while protecting their own interests and covertly - or even overtly - subsidized industries.

Edouard S.

Yes, But did the Egyptian's originally invent Toblerone as well as beer ?



Fritz Von Mostberlinerswouldlikeswitzerlandtostayjustwhereitis ie: Outside & Arrogant with no Portfolio, only money. WE know the difference between drinking partners and friends, one can be bought the other just happens, innit.

Tschuß

Bed time in a minute so that's good news for many at least, cuckoo clocks, and Gay rights for voting homophobic clans, it's amazing that the wonderful Heidi tales originated there, really ?

Fritz Von LOok No Hans Aaaaaaagh

Are you being deliberately offensive, are you playing some sort of twisted pseudo-provocation game with which you aim to convey some sort of dark humor, or are you just plain nuts ?

Not that I take it personnally. I have three nationalities, so I am culturally schizophrenic anyway, meaning I just don't give a damn. It's just that your posts make me wonder.

Edouard S.

Sometimes underneath those indigestible layers of ranting you thrust upon us there is some humor to be enjoyed, Fritz.

Amazing.

Edouard S.

Get your facts right Fritzy, the cuckoo clock was developed and imposed upon the unsuspecting world by the Austrians, the Swiss are innocent of this particular weirdness.


Cheers

Andy

Thanks for that Sir, though I suspect many are made in China too ! Not wishing to sound racist, but in my own personal experience when meeting folks travelling, next to Israeli's and Londoners I find the Swiss the most arrogant buch of self righteous know it all's/nothing I can remember.

Fritz Von And I've just enjoyed my daily ice cold shower, first signs of snow today, so it's getting warmer. I wonder if those well meaning folk starting that second G-Bay thread will ever realise that they can quote, spout every law, rule, argument in the book, and NO They shoulödn't have a say, they're far far off of having earned it or being given respect from within €urope, especially in the Human Rights field, and their blatent Hypocrasy regarding it. these comments wont be liked, Hard Luck:

Well, as tourists, the Germans pretty much hold their own when it comes to boisterous arrogance and loudmouthed no-class taking over and ruining some of the best spots in the world.

Strange you should have that opinion of the Swiss. I came to live in Switzerland when I was over thirty years old, and I have always found them to be pretty down to earth, unassuming and understated.

And as for earning the respect of Europe and human rights is concerned, why do I find it somewhat out of place for a German to shoot his mouth off on the subject ? (I am assuming you are German, or are you not ?)

Edouard S.

Fritz, that last comment of mine was in response to your renewed assertion that the Swiss should not have their say in European politics.

Rereading your post, I am now not sure if you were in fact referring to the Swiss or the Americans. If you were in fact referring to the Americans, please disregard my comment and accept my apologies. If you were referring to the Swiss, well, please it again !

Edouard S.

quote:

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Thanks for that Sir, though I suspect many are made in China too ! Not wishing to sound racist, but in my own personal experience when meeting folks travelling, next to Israeli's and Londoners I find the Swiss the most arrogant buch of self righteous know it all's/nothing I can remember.

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I suspect that not all Swiss fall into the above category, just many of those from, say Zurich, who speak a version of German as a first language.

The francophone Swiss, I've found to be virtually indistinguishable from their counterparts in France itself, i.e: open, friendly and courteous, generous not least in spirit.

Regards,

Steve.

Check their opinions on immigration, and I suspect Steve that you or I if Slightly darker skinned, no dosh in our pockets´, a four daqy beard growth and a non European Passport, we'd be treated and thought opf slightly differtently,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can only of cpurse refer to those I'd met, some of who'm were Diplomats ?

Fritz Von Nobodytrustsateetotaller

Once again, Fritz, check your facts. The number of immigrants in Switzerland reaches a whopping 20 % of the population, a figure way higher, to my knowledge, then any other european country.

Race related incidents in Switzerland do occasionally occur, of course, but peaceful coexistance is by and large the rule of thumb. Integration is another matter, but the problems here are by no means more acute then in other european countries, much the contrary in fact.

Edouard S.