OriginLive modified Rega Arms vs. Ekos/Aro, etc.
Posted by: Top Cat on 29 November 2000
I have a (lightly modified) LP12/Lingo/Akito/
ESCo-rebuilt Asaka MC, but would like to upgrade from the (limiting) Akito arm.
I initially considered an Ekos or Aro, but they are kinda pricy new and I'm not sure about the wisdom of buying a superarm s/h. In any case, they're like hens' teeth.
I got thinking about the OriginLive modifications that they do on RB250/300/900s, and wondered if anyone has experience of any of these modified arms, especially on the LP12. The website, at www.originlive.com, claims their modified RB250 to blow away the unmodified RB900, which (by my reckoning) would make it worthy of consideration.
And a lot cheaper 
Any thoughts, friends?
John
Perhaps a more knowledgeable person (Frank A?) would care to comment.
regards,
Mark
I dunno a lot about the Origin Live mods (apart from what they are)... The RB300 is a remarkably good arm for the money, but a super-arm it ain't, and is unlikely to be after a few mods (silk purse and sow's ear etc)... I'd reckon a good used Ittok would be the call; alternately, IIRC there's a Kuzma or Project arm that's not too pricey, beats an ittok, and works on an LP12 - according to my old dealer, well worth searching out. Or you can wait a while - not all used super-arms are shagged (indeed, why should many of them be shagged?) - buy from your trusted dealer. There are still Aro's selling, so surely people are trading in Ittoks or Ekos (ducks).
Has anyone tried the RB900 on the LP12? I'd really like to hear about that one.
Rico - musichead
quote:
I got thinking about the OriginLive modifications that they do on RB250/300/900s, and wondered if anyone has experience of any of these modified arms, especially on the LP12.
There are two kinds of arms, those that work on a LP12, and those that do not. The Rega RB900 is a fabulous arm, and one good enough to make anything else simply appear overpriced, the problem is that Rega arms are simply not a good match with the LP12.
The arms that I would recommend for an LP12 are the Ittok LVII or preferably the later LVIII (bit soft, but involving), the Ekos (perhaps to far the other way, can sound over detailed and sterile to my ears), the Aro (stunning mid band, bit soft at the extremes), and the unsung hero of the pack, the Zeta. The Zeta was around for quite a few years, and I have heard it compared to both the Aro and the Ekos, in many ways it sits quite comfortably between the two, it is a little more relaxed than the Ekos, and whilst the mid is a little behind that of the Aro, the frequency extremes are a little tighter. Some Zetas suffered from slightly poor quality control, and had sticky bearings, so beware.
Tony.
quote:
The RB300 will work pretty bloody successfully on an LP12, as long as the unit in question has the glued subchassis, and late armboard... the corner checks help. A friend of mine ran one for about a year, and it rocked
My LP12 has the cirkus mod, and is a corner-braced, glued plinth (a mongrel 'table, but based upon a 1991 LP12-basik). The cirkus kit includes an up-to-date armboard, so that should be okay, no?
Supposedly the modified RB250 whips the RB900, so if I can get one to fit the LP12 it should indeed rock.
Other questions: how well do Linn MC cartridges in general, and Asakas in particular, work with rega arms, and also what about the VTA issue?
John
As Tony and Rico suggests a late Ittok is a good choice, my own personal experience of an LP12/Black Ittok LVII/Troika (I had one a few years ago) was that I used to get some end of side distortion which used to annoy me.
cheers
Dev
I have had some experience with both Linn and Rega arms but not in conjunction with a Linn deck. Given the synergy aspect of vinyl playing system components the comments that follow will not fully apply to your circumstances but nonetheless you may find like I did that the cost of the trial is not prohibitive, even if things do not go well.
I use a Townshend Rock and originally ran it with an Akito(Japanese version). I also acquired a RB300 but although the mid and upper frequency range and general musical flow was an improvement the bass was too soft and it didn't time as well as the Akito. It wasn't until I replaced my Nait1 with a 32-5/90 that I found the RB300's strengths shone through enough for it to permanently replace the Akito.
In the last year I purchased an OR Live RB250 from new, going for the structural mods plus internal rewire initially. I have not gone back to the RB300 since. The increase in detail, bass power and definition were a great improvement. However I was not able to extract the most from this arm until I had also replaced the stock Rega arm lead with OR's and added my own 'Armageddon' to the deck.
In fact I believe the MC preamp stage is now the limiting factor for the deck.
As I said the synergy between cart, arm, deck and PSU are a big factor in making the most from vinyl. The ORLive mod modifies the arm by coupling the counterweight to it rather than decoupling as with the Rega/Akito. This changes the structural resonances of the arm and requires good 'grounding' thru bearings and arm base to chassis to dissipate it.The Rock is very well designed to sink this energy. I don't know about the LP12.
Unfortunately I have no reference point with respect to an Aro or Ekos so can provide no absolute judgement on the ORLive performance - suffice to say I am finding great satisfaction with my current setup.
Incidentally I use a Denon DL304 cart which probably has very little in common with a Linn cartridge - the first and last one I used was a the original Basik
Regards,
Dav
I'm running an identical vinyl front end. Please contact me off-list as I'd like to e-squeak about your experiences.
Rock III
RB300
Denon 304
regards,
Mark
[This message was edited by woodface on WEDNESDAY 29 November 2000 at 17:25.]
quote:
One reason why their is a shortage of good Ittocks out there is that if they get damaged their owners can claim on the insurance. Old for new = Ekos!!
So, what would be the modern equivalent of an Akito???? 
quote:
The arms that I would recommend for an LP12 are the Ittok LVII or preferably the later LVIII (bit soft, but involving), the Ekos (perhaps to far the other way, can sound over detailed and sterile to my ears), the Aro (stunning mid band, bit soft at the extremes), and the unsung hero of the pack, the Zeta. The Zeta was around for quite a few years, and I have heard it compared to both the Aro and the Ekos, in many ways it sits quite comfortably between the two, it is a little more relaxed than the Ekos, and whilst the mid is a little behind that of the Aro, the frequency extremes are a little tighter. Some Zetas suffered from slightly poor quality control, and had sticky bearings, so beware.
My experience with 'Super Arms' comes from owning- in chronological order- a Syrinx PU2 (three samples), an Ittok (2 samples), a Zeta, a Syrinx PU3 and an Aro. I have also owned a Hadcock (wonderful), a Signet AT1100 and two Linn LV-X Basiks.
The Ittoks at the time were revolutionary and revelationary, given that the previous King of the Hill was the coloured and uncontrolled Grace 707. By todays standards the Ittok is not the last word in neutrality or dynamics, but still it was an enormous leap over the LV-X I had been using before.
The Syrinxes (I think the plural should be 'syringes', but that sounds too much like drug parephenalia)were rather more neutral and ripe, lacking most of the Ittoks' spikey resonances and very few of its strengths. The PU-2 were a disaster to set up and maintain. The PU-3 was better in all departments- recently I got to compare my LP12 equipped with the PU-3 and a Dynavector 17D against a LP12/Ekos/Klyde and found the PU-3 fronted table to offer greater tune and precision. The Zeta....aaaah, the Zeta.....truly an arm before its time and severely hampered by the additional hardware that served as its armrest and cueing device. In a stripped-down form this arm offered explosive dynamics,great extension and out-Ittoked anything that Linn has ever done. There was a period when the bearings would ALL seize (mine included) as the batch of lubricating grease used eventually hardened and caked the bearings to a standstill. In addition to stripping down the redundant hardware, I had mine rewired with silver Litz.
Which brings me to....
... the Aro.
There are some/many albums where it does sound a trifle light in the bottom end and others where it offers great power and extension. I think that many/most other arms have colorations that make the bass seem subjectively greater, much in the same way that some mini-monitors can goose up a systems response through creative doubling harmonics, and can sound 'bassier' than some speakers with true and faithful LF response. Now most albums I have on vinyl were mastered for mass consumption- meaning that the LF is mixed to mono and truncated to varying degrees. This is quite accurately portrayed by the Aro, and is not a fault of it. Hey, if you want bass that is better than the real thing, try out a Koetsu in a Zeta.
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
quote:
This business about an RB300 not working on an LP12 is one of my favourite audio world self-propagating myths.
It works, but does not achieve anything like what it should. On a LP12 a Ittok will win, on pretty much any other rigid deck (Xerxes, Gyro etc) the RB300 will prove a better arm than an Ittok. The LP12 does not like ultra rigid arms, the SME IV and V are also alledged to perform less than they are capable in this situation. My totally unsubstansiated guess is that they pump to much energy back into the LP12's subchassis.
Tony.
quote:
As for Origin Live, I have tried a couple of their tips for improving the performance of my RB900 and concluded that these guys don't have a clue about music.
Vuk, what did you try?
Tony.
I thought that the reason the SME's fail dismally on the LP12 is through the sheer weight, which the LP12 just can't handle. Like in the old days when people were running FR12's and FR64FX's, with custom-wound springs as an attempt to rebalance the LP12 suspension.
Is the Ittok not very rigid, then? 
Rico - musichead
I agree with what Tony has to say about Rega tonearms and the LP12--while they work somewhat you are not receiving the full measure of performance the arm is capable of. The RB300, while a very good arm, is not as good on an LP12 as an Ittok. The RB900 also sounds OK on an LP12 but not as good as it should. Don't know why, an lived with the combo for about 6 months (cartridge was Goldring Excel, Rega Elys, or Linn K9/18).
I would hunt out either a used Ittok LV3 or an Aro, though I understand your point about the Aro being expensive in real money.
Cheers,
Bob
I owned this setup prior to getting a LP12/Ittok/Karma. Hope it brings back
good memories:-).
[This message was edited by John Gilleran on THURSDAY 30 November 2000 at 01:45.]
I may just have sourced a pre-owned, mint Aro for sensible money. So, perhaps the dream will become a reality. PaulS@Naim, if you're reading this, thanks for the offer - I'll contact the seller and get things sorted out.
John (in delighted mood - hopefully soon to be able to lay claim to an LP12/Lingo/Aro/Asaka
instead of the lacklustre Akito
Rico - musichead
quote:
Is the Ittok not very rigid, then?
More joints than a hippy's ash tray...
From memory, the Ittoks headshell is bolted onto the arm tube, the arm tube is bolted onto the bearing assembly, the bearing assembly is bolted onto the locking collar, then that is bolted onto the deck - and I have probably missed some joints out!
The LVIII was glued as well as screwed, which was much better, and the Ekos was heat glued or something as well, plus had far better bearings.
The RB300 / 600 / 900 is simply bolted onto the deck. No joints.
Tony.
quote:
But the 774 - mmm I'd love to find one again.
Hell I'd even buy an LP12 just to use it.
I remember installing it onto the Linn and being completely gobsmacked at the effect - stunning amounts of life & dynamics.
The Mission arms (at least the Mechanik) I believe was designed by the same person that designs and builds the current Graham tonearms- which I hear work a real treat on the LP12. These are available for Aro-prices.
I almost ended up buying a Mission arm in 1979, but elected to keep the one I had (the Hadcock GH228) and get my first MC cartridge instead.
One arm that I once heard working splendidly on an LP12 was the air-bearinged Emminent Technology ET-2 arm, on which was mounted- of all things- a Shure V-15 mk4!!
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
quote:
From memory, the Ittoks headshell is bolted onto the arm tube, the arm tube is bolted onto the bearing assembly,
Oh bloody hell, I was thinking that the TikTok LVII was glued also! 
Anyone got a spare tube of Supafix? 
Rico - musichead
It may have more joints than a hippies ashtray, but it still produces great music. (*)
Don't forget at one time this would have been used as the front-end for a top level active system.
Andy.
(*) Didn't realise this joke has been made already!
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
Malcolm