Welcome to Fortress Brighton

Hi Oldie
It’s interesting you mention this as it’s been on my own mind for a while. We live about 10 miles north of Bristol and wanting a less hassled life than when we were in town, enjoy the village style a bit. So, consequently we’re not in Bristol too much but when we are differences are noticeable more so than normal. We took our 12-year-old son for a hair cut in town and to see the in-laws yesterday etc and the amount of surveillance of the general public is extremely intrusive in my opinion. My wife was asking me why I kept looking up, but I was amazed at the number of cameras around the place. In a part of Bristol by the university I counted 5 cameras looking at a small area. I don’t know what some of the gadgets are either, there where 2 side by side CCTV’s with an additional 2 black box things on each (infra red?) a few paces on and there was a strange camera thing looking like a black globe – another camera I guess, all this was topped by a large cylinder looking object with an aerial on the lid.

From the Independent newspaper:
Four million CCTV cameras watch public. UK has the highest level of surveillance
By Maxine Frith, Social Affairs Correspondent
12 January 2004
More than four million surveillance cameras monitor our every move, making Britain the most-watched nation in the world, research has revealed…………………..

There is now not just talk of, but planning for, ID cards, vehicle insurance by GPS, chips embedded in number plates for monitoring, monitoring roads with cameras in cats eyes, also we’ve just had to sort out my father-in-laws estate and we had to fill out, and be charged for the time, paperwork pertaining to money laundering rules – who bloody kidding who?
I haven’t a clue who these people are, but found this by google:
http://www.spy.org.uk/article8.htm
I would class myself and my family as the most ordinary people in the UK but we cant seem to wipe our arses without it being recorded somewhere, while people drive around un-insured, fiddling the welfare state of millions, and getting away with tax fraud like its going out of fashion.
Regards
Martin

I feel for you Oldie - I have a number of friends in Brighton and they are all saying similar things.

Who, one wonders, could possibly have it in for T Blair?*

Rod

*Apart from, but not limited to, Gordon Brown, Iraqis, foxhunters, parents, taxpayers, people of the free world, philosophers, ill people, Robin Cook, Muslims, terrorists of pretty much any persuasion, Cliff Richard (for that guacamole stain on the carpet), everyone who works, has ever worked, or may ever work, for the BBC, music fans at Oxford and beyond, Carole Caplin, John Kerry and Mick Parry (although at 49mph he mightn't get there in time, phew.)

I feel for you too.

The roots of this lie in the Brighton bomb 20 years ago. Afterwards, under Thatcher, security at Tory conferences got tighter and tighter as each year went by; Labout took up this mantle when it came to power, although it's got noticeably worse since 2001. As you say, it seems a little odd (not to say unfair) that people can't move freely in their own town just because of a "conference" at which nothing gets discussed, no policy that our great PM has already decided gets changed.

THere used to be a time when these conferences meant something; but they seem to have little to do with democracy these days, and are beginning to resemble those absurdly overblown US party conventions.

Perhaps the time has come to stop disrupting the lives of folk in the seaside towns and halt these affairs?

I would be interested to know, however, Oldie, whether you think the conferences actually bring ANY benefits to town (in the form of increased business, employment, etc), or do these olitical jamborees just mean negatives?

Kevin (Herbie Hancock: Hang Up Your Hang-Ups)

You should have been up here during the Miners' Strike of 1984-coppers everywhere.Any car with three males in was pulled in for a chat.Strangely ,not too much of this made the press.

Didn’t mean to score an own goal re the tax bit, but meant organisations – even the inland revenue take advantage of evasion schemes when my buts against the wall.
Martin

I live in London and work in the city with cameras every where, armed police some places places most of the time, closed streets in a few places all of the time plus most forms of public transport fitted with camers all of the time.

A lot of it about but it does not bother me that much, it is just a fact of life living in London.

Welcome my friends to the show that never ends.

No offence, but I bet if something really bad did happen (anyone see the dirty bomb prog on BBC1 this evening?) the public(and certainly the media) would complain that "the Government" hadn't "done anything".

You don't like yobs on street corners, you don't like people who commit crime, and you may even dislike "immigrants abusing our public services" (perhaps not). But if you want the ends you're going to have to have the means.

Counter-rant over.

Tim

Just got back from my local hostelry, having done a round trip of about 30 odd miles ,taking the bypass road around Brighton instead of the main road through Brighton, STILL again videoed both ways several times, I must admit to being most fortunate to have had my own personal police motor bike escort, two of them,[ how much did this cost the local tax payers, and how offten is it going to be repeated during the next week] through Brighton to shoreham a distance of about 10 miles[ they kept looking at me as we drove side by side so I wound down the side window and looked back at them with distain and eventually they Pi--ed OFF] . but it STILL leaves you with a feeling of being under suspicion all of the time, just for moveing around your own town.
Velofellow,
Yes I was there ,the miners , the Steel workers, the Print workers, The right to work marches, the second Jarrow to London march Ive been on them all ,The number of strange people I have encountered on various marches that were wearing new blue anoraks and trousers, black boots and when talking called me Brother, but videoed and photographed us all, and thought we didn't notice, are far to many to mention ,but it still comes as a supprise ,I'm afraid when you try to go about your daily business only to encounter thousands of the plod on over inflated overtime payments, which we have to pay for, making life very difficult for the people of Brighton, just so a lying conniving little toe rag can perform to the world stage without any address to reality. These comments are from, you must remember, a Ex,Shop Steward of Rolls Royce, Aero Division, a old member of The Socialist Workers Party, and to boot an old Socalist, so criticism of what should have been a great opportunity for the "NEW" LABOUR supporters to have their thoughts and beliefs taken into consideration comes hard but the reality of the situation remains that during the next week the people of Brighton are going to be repressed, controlled and the right to move freely without hinderance about their own City denied to them.
Rant still on going,
must remember to stop in all this week so as to not come into contact with my local smiling Bobby
oldie.

[This message was edited by oldie on Mon 27 September 2004 at 0:51.]

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Originally posted by oldie:
...These comments are from, you must remember, a Ex,Shop Steward of Rolls Royce, Aero Division, a old member of The Socialist Workers Party, and to boot an old Socalist, so criticism of what should have been a great opportunity for the "NEW" LABOUR supporters to have their thoughts and beliefs taken into consideration comes hard ...

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oldie, why does this criticism come so hard?

Hasn't it been clear from the first moment he was elected PM and invited Mrs. Thatcher over for tea, that Tony Blair isn't Old Labour, isn't New Labour and, actually, isn't Labour at all?

I don't ask this as someone from the left, right or centre but as a very curious observer. Why is it so hard for many Labour supporters to 'get' the fact that their leader is, in fact, a Tory?

Steve

Tim,
No offence taken, but sorry , you are so off beam it's unbelievable.
The so called bad bit you mention has already happend , we have been lied to , taken into a unlawful war, Young men killed, billions of pounds wasted over the past ten or more years bombing a sovereign state, just to protect U.S and our interest in the oil supply, that could have been spent on Education, Hospitals and realistic Pensions for the elderly[that includes me now]that in a so called civilized country it's unbeleivable. The POLICE in Brighton are normally not noticed for their immediate responce to local problems often quoting lack of manning as a excuse for very late or not even attending incidents, one that comes to mind was a apprehended thief that although the local Police Station was less than a hundred yards away took 45 minuets to arrive to arrest the young man. To night there must have been a couple of thousand coppers in Brighton doing bu--er all apart from stopping the people of Brighton going about their own legal business.
If we were unlucky enough to have a dirty bomb or for that matter any sort of bomb or terrorist action, unless you were a delegate of the "new labour party" I for one wouldn't fancy your chances of survival around here. So democrocy doesn't really come into it, as for the immigrants abusing our public services when we sort out the immigrants that have ripped off the British Public for years, that live in the "House" at the end of the Mall then, and only then, can we look at other families that may be, and only may be, be abusing the system until then I for one am quite happy with our culture of welcoming and embracing all manner of people and their cultures into this country, It has certainly improved my lifestyle
RANT NOW ALMOST OVER,
thanks, oldie.

7V,
Yes, you are of course quite right, I do realise that " New Labour" is infact just a natural progresion of the old Tory Party, in fact Phony Tony has managed to get through Parliament laws that "thatcher" would have given her right arm and half of her cabernet to have achieved.But at my age change comes hard and it is very difficult to accept that all one and others has fought for, over the years , ie, improved wages,shorter working week, improved working conditions, healthier working environment can all be washed aside by a so calledLabour P Mso we now have the longest working week, shortest Holiday entitlelment, and in most case's the lowest Wages dispite being the forth highest economy in the world,
Thanks Tony
oldie.

Some excellent posts Oldie, Dolphins Beware.


Graham George von Getbacktoworksharpish

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Originally posted by oldie:
... so we now have the longest working week, shortest Holiday entitlelment, and in most case's the lowest Wages dispite being the forth highest economy in the world ...

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Presumably you mean the 'longest working week, shortest Holiday entitlement, and in most case's the lowest Wages in the EEC'. You're not comparing us with the US, Canada or the Far East, are you?

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by oldie:
There are more police armed with machine guns[ that are not suitable or accurate enough to be used in a area crowded with people]

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They look impressive though, very menacing.

quote:

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Originally posted by velofellow:
You should have been up here during the Miners' Strike of 1984-coppers everywhere.Any car with three males in was pulled in for a chat.Strangely ,not too much of this made the press.

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Wasn't the news mainly dealing with some big story at the time? Thats right, it was the miners strike.

Oldie.
You thought yesterday was bad - today there are police vans everywhere. Just about at every road junction. Cop cars with the lights going are racing around all the time. I wonder if they were snarled up by the school run this morning?

There were vans with guys with sub-machine guns blocking the Lewes Road last week. I was surprised not to see a gang of little scoombers taking the mick.

I struggle to really appreciate what the problem is here: anyone who's ever been in a town where a major football fixture is being staged might relate to me when I say that I'm comforted by the cameras and the streets crawling with Police and not irritated one iota. Similarly, it may be a pain to catch a flight with all the extra security but let's face it, would you sooner have it than not? With the levels of street crime being as high as they are, I'm all for cameras on every corner: if your child can be mugged in the street for his mobile phone and taken by some pervert whilst outside playing on the swings then the more preventative measures there are the better.
I wonder whether it's the reason for the "extreme" measures being taken in Brighton rather than the measures themselves that's the problem, i.e the party conference.
Perhaps it seems unjustified that we as tax payers have to foot the bill for this level of protection but it's a sign of the times I'm afraid.
I'll warrant there are thousands of relatives of the people killed during the IRA activities of the Seventies that might have wished for more surveillance had it been available at the time....

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Originally posted by jlfrs:

I'll warrant there are thousands of relatives of the people killed during the IRA activities of the Seventies that might have wished for more surveillance had it been available at the time....

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You are assuming the surveillance works.

Even if CCTV doesn't work, it still acts in some way as a deterrent, in the same way as a "false" alarm box on a house does...

I should add that I have no problem with it. If I need the cops, I'll just call 999 and say that there is an unidentified package just arrived. The place will be surrounded in seconds

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Originally posted by jlfrs:
Even if CCTV doesn't work, it still acts in some way as a deterrent, in the same way as a "false" alarm box on a house does...

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... to an organised terrorist network?

quote:

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.. to an organised terrorist network?

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I don't think there is a deterrent, and if that organised will get round any shield of cops etc. Or just go somewhere else.

Perhaps a suicide bomber wouldn't mind having his or her mug seen on camera but I have to believe that CCTV curbs the movements of most of the criminal fraternity to some degree in all its forms. To my knowledge, there's no cloaking device available to terrorists that allows them to become invisible when staking out buildings for deadly intent...
A more visible deterrent is a heavily armoured Police presence but apparently some people find this a bit of a nuisance...

Jlfrs,
with respect, but I think you have entirely missed the point.The odd thousand coppers swaning around Brighton some with and some without machine guns, the ones crawling around the roof tops, the vidieo vans on all the roads into Brighton,some of them hidden behind the bushes by the bridges and only given away by the trailing wires coming from the cameras disappearing into the trees, vidieoing every single vehicle that passes and at the same time carries out a check on the owner to find out who they are and should they have legitimate business in the area etc. The Helicopters over head day and night, and the alleged warships just of the coast, are not there to protect the people of Brighton fron robbery, mugging or anything else[ just try and get a copper to come round after you have been burgled down here] NO the mugging and robbery is being affected on the people of Brighton by those who agreed to this feasco taking place. The last time it happend it cost local people over £6 million, money that should have been spent on local services, those below the poverty line and the under privileged, christ we have enough people in this category in East Sussex, not on allegedly protecting the new labour circus, after all ,anything of importance that may have been discused by the delegates has already been ruled out by Blair and his cohorts the only kind of democracy allowed is his definition of democracy and not that, that the rest of the country wishes.
One last point CCTV cameras all over the place do not reduce crime as all that has to be done to illude recognition is to wear a baseball cap or one of those hooded cowl jackets our young people seem to prefer, no face on view no recognition no matter how many cameras there are, this of course assumes that they are all working ,as in a town not far from here they have had to switch them all off as the local council couldn't afford to update their old system ,the local police in that area complained that they couldn't use the images as the quality was so poor, but were not prepared to contribute to the replacement and upkeep as it was the local councils responsibilty not the police authorities, crime prevention it, makes one laugh!
GREAT HERE ISN'T IT! how do they manage to get away with it?
oldie.