Murder of Nicholas Berg

There are sometimes similar videos or pictures that pop up on the internet that one is tempted to view but I can honestly say that I wouldn't watch this if someone paid me. I have seen the photos and read the reports and that's more than enough for me thanks. I am curious as to why you said this though, perhaps you could elobrate?

I stubbed my toe today. I strongly advise you not to do so if you wish to avoid toe pain.

Matthew

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13088189,00.html

It's not a link to the video, just the Sky News report.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard @ Soundcraft:
There are sometimes similar videos or pictures that pop up on the internet that one is tempted to view but I can honestly say that I wouldn't watch this if someone paid me. I have seen the photos and read the reports and that's more than enough for me thanks. I am curious as to why you said this though, perhaps you could elobrate?

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Richard, No other reason than, it is truly horrendous and i wished that i had not watched it, just a warning to others.

God bless.

Guys I’m depressed. I went into a rage when I heard about this – mushroom clouds and all that, then I thought maybe they’re in a rage too, I don’t know, nothing justifies such violence. I wish I were a good enough writer to put my feelings into words better.
What’s the answer?
Martin

Martin,

I'm sure you're a better writer than you think. As it happens I think there are far more articulate writers than me on this Forum - just look at posts from the likes of bigmick, Matthew Robinson and Mike Lacey on the Iraqi POW's thread to see what I mean, but occasionally I look to put my tuppence-worth in to see if it will make a difference.

Believe me I share your frustration - we are so powerless to actually influence events and make things better. Who knows what the answer is, if even there is one?! That, though, is precisely why this Forum is so useful - it's a medium through which you can express your opinions/frustrations/thoughts knowing many other contributors will view them and will be able to respond.

So I invite you to post a contribution, no matter how rambling or incoherent you think it is! It'll probably come out better than you think!

Regards,

JonR

It is the most recent of a horrific series of events wich have spiralled upward in violence and inhumanity to this terrible pinnacle.

What I suspect has a lot of us confused is the recognition that the moral high ground we thought we occupied rightly or wrongly , has been pulled from under our feet over the last few days.

Regardsless of degree we are tarred with the same brush as the Americans in the matter of abuse and degrading acts perpetrated on Iraqi's in allied custody.

It is simplistic but obvuious that the Iraqi populace will draw no distinction between our relative levels of behavior. In a snippet on BBC news it was clear there is already a substantial view amongst the locals that the beheading was retribution we should have expected as a result of the publisised actions of the allies.

No matter how much we are revolted by that attitude we must recognise it is symptomatic of a situation that is spiralling out of control at a frightening speed and has got far beyond the capabilities of Bush & Blair to retrieve it.

Basically the allies in are in deep shit in Irag with no where to go to get out of it.

regards
GEOFF

I've read this thread and I feel sick to the stomach.

The bottom line is hatred and it's awful.

i viewed this footage before seeing this thread
i wish i had not, surely it can't be as bad as what they say i reasoned with myself. i was wrong and it is and worse.
this single act of horror does not need words to describe it.
what a way to lose your life, i know this is a war but nothing can justify this,has the human race stooped to a lower than ever level?
my son is 7 years old soon i wonder what type of world he will live in when he becomes an adult.

Woke up thinking about this last night, a man being beheaded with a knife.

And to video the 'event'....

They video 'executions' in America too don't they? Why?

Haven't really 'progressed' in many ways have we.........

Before I say this, I feel I should say that AFAIK Nick Berg was murdered and beheaded, so don't take this as me denying that another heinous act among many has occurred.

That said, I'm not sure the video is what is says it is. I saw this on a blog:

quote:

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1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either
he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and
all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to
change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on
the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what
page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly
dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

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and al-jazeera note a bunch of other anomalies.

The fullest video I have seen is 5mins 37 long, and starts with a black screen and white text, and is titled 'iraq2vediom.wmv'. There are alot of edited versions. Whatever, it is still a miserable business.

I have read this thread and just reading the thread has made me sick, I have no intention of watching the video. We all know that these barbaric acts go on but I personally don't want to see it.

The Daily Telegraph printed a photo on the front page and my 6 year old son picked it up from the mat and asked "what are they doing?" where do you start?


Regards


NB

NB,

At least your 6 year old is growing up in a moderate Western and politically 'temperate' environment in which he will eventually educate himself as to rights and wrongs of these situations - with your guidance of course as his father.

What frightens me about all this is that there are probably thousands of kids, who are your son's age, being born in the 'hotspots' of the middle east where no such 'temperate' environment exists, and the sad but likely outcome of this is that these children will be brought up to hate, and to kill, and in some cases as we have seen, to sacrifice themselves in the process.

So my suggestion is, use this priceless advantage that you have. It's probably the best defence our 'civilised' culture has against violence, hatred and oppression.

Hope at least some of this makes sense.

Regards,

JonR

A friend of mine has just returned from the USA and some people there see the Iraq situation as Christian versus Muslim, is this right?...

Surely propaganda is rife on both sides

Yes, he could.

However, my point is that he lives in a culture where all these alernative viewpoints/images are available for him to judge for himself what he considers right or wrong, justified or not.

Perhaps I should have qualified my reference to a 'Western and politically 'temperate' environment' by saying it is one which excludes barbaric US soldiers and their actions - but then again that is just us adding our own points of view and, with respect, not the point I was trying to make.

Regards,

JonR

We seem obsessed with finding fault with photos or videos to cry "fake" in some vain hope that we can deny the reality of these crimes. Fake or not, there is no denying that these crimes take place on all sides. I have always thought that it takes a particular type of person to want to be a soldier.

Sorry i am not the pinnacle of perfection that you are.

Travec,
I watched it as I was having trouble handling the images that kept appearing in my head. In my experience facing up to something like this is preferable to trying to bury it. So I wanted to see exactly what happened and I can say that although it is truly repugnant I feel slightly better as I'm absolutely convinced that Nick Berg was not alive when it happened.

Personally I see it as an act of provocation rather than intimidation and my first reaction was to "bomb the bastards". However I suspect that's exactly what Al Quaeda are aiming for.

What an almighty mess.

What a fcuked up world we live in.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
When Charles I was beheaded a large crowd gathered to spectate and then mopped up the blood for souvenirs. Have we progressed on from there that much?

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Hi Tom

Of course we have moved on. The souvenirs would now have appeared on eBay !!!

quote:

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Originally posted by TomK:
. . . I feel slightly better as I'm absolutely convinced that Nick Berg was not alive when it happened.

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On what basis are you convinced that Berg was already dead when the beheading took place? I hope you are right - any bit of news like that does my noodle some good, if even just a tiny bit.

Judd

Justin,
I didn't go into detail for obvious reasons and I'm still not going to do so. Briefly, I saw a person being pushed over, much confusion and chanting going on (the sound was obviously added later), and no discernable sign of reaction or response from that person. Very little blood appeared and there seemed to be no reflex reaction.

We have at least one doctor who is a regular and respected member of this board. Perhaps others are better equipped than I to describe what would happen in this situation.

This is going to make me look a Ghoul, but i have seen other video's of Islamic's beheading people, one of a Russian officer in Chechneya.
There was little struggle , Berg's hands and feet were tied so there was not much he could do.
Let's hope that he was already dead.
When i watched it i cried and thought of his Father.

[This message was edited by central on Sat 15 May 2004 at 7:08.]