Credit Card Fraud
Posted by: Not For Me on 02 September 2004
I have just found out some bastard has been taking out £'00s a day from ATMs charging my Barclaycard. They have got many thousands out.
As soon as I saw our account I rang Barclaycard and the cards have been stopped. I can't talk to their Fraud department until tomorrow morning.
Has anyone had this experience and can offer advice on what happens next? I have checked with Barclays that we are not liable becuase it is fraud. - I hope
DS
too upset to OTD
As soon as I saw our account I rang Barclaycard and the cards have been stopped. I can't talk to their Fraud department until tomorrow morning.
Has anyone had this experience and can offer advice on what happens next? I have checked with Barclays that we are not liable becuase it is fraud. - I hope
DS
too upset to OTD
Posted on: 02 September 2004 by MichaelC
Hope this is sorted out quickly.
I have had two experiences:
One of which involved an American Express card. Amex were singularly unhelpful - my brother-in-law cleared up the problem with a personal visit to the trader who tried it on. Thanks Amex for doing precisely *uck all.
My other experience was with a series of withdrawls from my Barclays account - many thousands each time spread over four consecutive days by a dubious sounding car hire firm in Grenada. The fraudulent transactions were removed immediately without question.
Thank god you are not dealing with NatWest. One of my business partners had £17K removed from his current account over two weeks ago. Immediately reported. NatWest's attitude is that he is guilty until he can prove he is innocent - despite being asked for the chits/slips or whatever to support this transaction and the bank's stance they have failed to produce it to him. He's still £17K out of pocket and our solicitors are warming up their quills...
If my experience with Barclays is anything to go by then you should be looked after.
Regards
Mike
I have had two experiences:
One of which involved an American Express card. Amex were singularly unhelpful - my brother-in-law cleared up the problem with a personal visit to the trader who tried it on. Thanks Amex for doing precisely *uck all.
My other experience was with a series of withdrawls from my Barclays account - many thousands each time spread over four consecutive days by a dubious sounding car hire firm in Grenada. The fraudulent transactions were removed immediately without question.
Thank god you are not dealing with NatWest. One of my business partners had £17K removed from his current account over two weeks ago. Immediately reported. NatWest's attitude is that he is guilty until he can prove he is innocent - despite being asked for the chits/slips or whatever to support this transaction and the bank's stance they have failed to produce it to him. He's still £17K out of pocket and our solicitors are warming up their quills...
If my experience with Barclays is anything to go by then you should be looked after.
Regards
Mike
Posted on: 02 September 2004 by Martin D
We had three instances of this with First Direct, sorted staight away on the phone with a good response and instant refund.
Martin
Martin
Posted on: 03 September 2004 by JonR
Any news, David?
Regards,
JonR
Regards,
JonR
Posted on: 03 September 2004 by HTK
My HSBC Mastercard got cloned and hammered for a couple of thousand. Card stopped immediately and another issued. Police came round and took statement. Money refunded within 2 weeks.
Another Visa card from a third party non UK High Street bank who I will not name sat back whilst someone in the States had a free ride on it. They stopped the card but did not make any attempt to investigate or refund.
Nowadays I stick to CCs issued by High Street banks where I can walk in if necessary.
Hope it gets sorted.
Cheers
Harry
Another Visa card from a third party non UK High Street bank who I will not name sat back whilst someone in the States had a free ride on it. They stopped the card but did not make any attempt to investigate or refund.
Nowadays I stick to CCs issued by High Street banks where I can walk in if necessary.
Hope it gets sorted.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 03 September 2004 by garyi
I had this twice with first direct, it was sorted out within minutes.
I put the whole problem to bed by canceling my credit cards, its had all sorts of good effects!
I put the whole problem to bed by canceling my credit cards, its had all sorts of good effects!
Posted on: 03 September 2004 by Not For Me
Now waiting for the paperwork to declare which transactions are not mine. Initial indications are that the items will be cancelled off, but not 100% sure yet.
DS
DS
Posted on: 02 October 2004 by Not For Me
I've been offline for a while - No broadband 
New modem installed today.
Barclaycard have now written and confirmed they have removed all cash withdrawls, all cash fees and interest, so pretty much sorted it out.
Totalled about £7,500 in the end !!!!!
Still no explanation / how it could happen though.
I am now deeply suspcious of Chip and Pin and will not use it. I don't know how long retailers will be able to override it on thier machines?
DS
ITIR - Severed Heads - Kato gets the Girl
*** All the views expressed within this e-mail are the sole responsibility of DS, and as such are subject to chaining ***
New modem installed today.Barclaycard have now written and confirmed they have removed all cash withdrawls, all cash fees and interest, so pretty much sorted it out.
Totalled about £7,500 in the end !!!!!
Still no explanation / how it could happen though.
I am now deeply suspcious of Chip and Pin and will not use it. I don't know how long retailers will be able to override it on thier machines?
DS
ITIR - Severed Heads - Kato gets the Girl
*** All the views expressed within this e-mail are the sole responsibility of DS, and as such are subject to chaining ***
Posted on: 02 October 2004 by HTK
Wow! That's some spree. Glad it's sorted.
There are numerous ways a card can get copied - I believe mine got knobbled at a petrol station in Maidenhead. Any situation where you hand it over is a potential hazzard.
Cheers
Harry
There are numerous ways a card can get copied - I believe mine got knobbled at a petrol station in Maidenhead. Any situation where you hand it over is a potential hazzard.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 02 October 2004 by Rich Cundill
Folks
I work for a bank (don't shout at me) and can shed some light here. The fraud is down to the bad guys cloning the magnetic stripe on the back of the ATM card. They do this by putting fake card readers on the front of the regular card reader on the ATM. This 'skims' the info from the mag stripe - and combined with various ways of getting your PIN number (one is the Lebanese Loop where some tape is put in the card reader stopping it from being accepted fully in to the machine. The bad guys mate is behind you in the queue and tells you to keep trying and keep inputting your PIN - hence he finds out your PIN and they have got your mag stripe as well - bingo). My bank are losing £600,000 a month in fraud down to this skimming.
The introduction of Chip and Pin should help considerably as there is no way (at the moment!) of cloning the chip. The problem is that there are too many faulty chip cards and too many faulty ATMs out there that cause the ATM to 'fallback' to reading the mag stripe - hence it still goes on. My lot will be stopping the 'fallback' just as soon as we understand the customer service impact - i.e. when it comes in we will piss thousands of customers off as they will get a message saying the machine don't work rather than it 'falling back' to the mag stripe.
One thing that you can do is ensure you store your chip card safely so it doesn't get damaged (i.e. not next to your losse change or something).
Sorry if this is not much use at the mo but all the banks are looking at this with great urgency.
Rich
PS OK I admit its my project - hence the 'too much information' in this post!
I work for a bank (don't shout at me) and can shed some light here. The fraud is down to the bad guys cloning the magnetic stripe on the back of the ATM card. They do this by putting fake card readers on the front of the regular card reader on the ATM. This 'skims' the info from the mag stripe - and combined with various ways of getting your PIN number (one is the Lebanese Loop where some tape is put in the card reader stopping it from being accepted fully in to the machine. The bad guys mate is behind you in the queue and tells you to keep trying and keep inputting your PIN - hence he finds out your PIN and they have got your mag stripe as well - bingo). My bank are losing £600,000 a month in fraud down to this skimming.
The introduction of Chip and Pin should help considerably as there is no way (at the moment!) of cloning the chip. The problem is that there are too many faulty chip cards and too many faulty ATMs out there that cause the ATM to 'fallback' to reading the mag stripe - hence it still goes on. My lot will be stopping the 'fallback' just as soon as we understand the customer service impact - i.e. when it comes in we will piss thousands of customers off as they will get a message saying the machine don't work rather than it 'falling back' to the mag stripe.
One thing that you can do is ensure you store your chip card safely so it doesn't get damaged (i.e. not next to your losse change or something).
Sorry if this is not much use at the mo but all the banks are looking at this with great urgency.
Rich
PS OK I admit its my project - hence the 'too much information' in this post!
Posted on: 02 October 2004 by Brian OReilly
Rich,
what's your view on the advantages and disadvantages of a fingerprint reader at ATMs ?
Brian OReilly
what's your view on the advantages and disadvantages of a fingerprint reader at ATMs ?
Brian OReilly
Posted on: 02 October 2004 by Rich Cundill
Brian
Please be aware that my knowledge of ATM fraud is pretty limited - I'm tasked with delivering an IT solution to deny fallback only - so this is just personal opinion with naff all business knowledge behind it - but....fingerprint ID must be more secure than anything in place now. However cost must be the big issue - not just the technology but the cost of replacing the existing ATMs - my bank has over 6000 of the bloody things. Also is it hardwaring enough, vandal proof etc? Same goes for any other biometric ID technologies.....
I shouldn't say this - but high street banks always go for cheap and cheerful options in my experience.
Rich
Please be aware that my knowledge of ATM fraud is pretty limited - I'm tasked with delivering an IT solution to deny fallback only - so this is just personal opinion with naff all business knowledge behind it - but....fingerprint ID must be more secure than anything in place now. However cost must be the big issue - not just the technology but the cost of replacing the existing ATMs - my bank has over 6000 of the bloody things. Also is it hardwaring enough, vandal proof etc? Same goes for any other biometric ID technologies.....
I shouldn't say this - but high street banks always go for cheap and cheerful options in my experience.
Rich
Posted on: 03 October 2004 by DAVOhorn
An addition to this.
Credit Card Theft and Abuse.
I was at a training 3 day event at a hotel in Ipswich last week.
The trainer left his jacket in the conference room at lunch time.
Lunch was 1/2 hour.
In that time his wallet was stolen and £4000.00 was run up on his credit cards.
When he got back from lunch he realised his wallet had been stolen.
This was immediately reported to the Hotel Manager The Police and Credit Card companies in that order
The manager said that the conference room was locked at lunch time as was policy. A colleague said it was not as he went into the conference room at lunch time.
If the room was locked then somebody witth access to the keys would be responsible ,if not then a casual thief would be.
It would appear the Hotel manager is caught between the devil and deep blue sea.
A: room locked so only somebody with access to keys over 1/2 hour lunch break could have committed the theft. So in house job involving member of staff.
B: room not locked as it should have been per company policy.
So either way Hotel at fault. The owner of the cards also had a responsibility to ensure the security of his wallet.
It would appear that it does not take long to spend £4k on credit cards.
I have as a result of this reduced my credit card limits so if i am unfortunate the damage will be less painful.
regards David
Credit Card Theft and Abuse.
I was at a training 3 day event at a hotel in Ipswich last week.
The trainer left his jacket in the conference room at lunch time.
Lunch was 1/2 hour.
In that time his wallet was stolen and £4000.00 was run up on his credit cards.
When he got back from lunch he realised his wallet had been stolen.
This was immediately reported to the Hotel Manager The Police and Credit Card companies in that order
The manager said that the conference room was locked at lunch time as was policy. A colleague said it was not as he went into the conference room at lunch time.
If the room was locked then somebody witth access to the keys would be responsible ,if not then a casual thief would be.
It would appear the Hotel manager is caught between the devil and deep blue sea.
A: room locked so only somebody with access to keys over 1/2 hour lunch break could have committed the theft. So in house job involving member of staff.
B: room not locked as it should have been per company policy.
So either way Hotel at fault. The owner of the cards also had a responsibility to ensure the security of his wallet.
It would appear that it does not take long to spend £4k on credit cards.
I have as a result of this reduced my credit card limits so if i am unfortunate the damage will be less painful.
regards David
Posted on: 03 October 2004 by Two-Sheds
quote:
what's your view on the advantages and disadvantages of a fingerprint reader at ATMs ?
I read an article on this a year or so ago and it stated that a well thought out and regularly formed password was safer than using finger print scanners. It outlined how you could fool a finger print scanner in the scenario's that you had the person's co-operation (take a mould of thier finger) and where you did not. There is apparently sufficient technology to lift a finger print (from a glass for example) and create fake finger with finger print, although this is time consuming and expensive (if I remember correctly) so is unlikely it would be used to steal a few thousand pounds.
The thing that would worry me about any sort of bio-metric id system (finger print, iris scan) is that attackers might start cutting off body parts instead of just taking a card.
didn't a bank (Halifax I think) test iris scanners at ATM's, only problem was it took 30 seconds or something to complete scan/verifiaction.
EDIT: just found a link to an article about fooling finger print scanners, not the article I was thinking of originally, but here it is.
[This message was edited by Two-Sheds on Sun 03 October 2004 at 14:51.]
Posted on: 03 October 2004 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
I have as a result of this reduced my credit card limits so if i am unfortunate the damage will be less painful.
David,
the card companies don't stop outgoing transactions when you reach your credit limit, because then they can charge you all sorts of penalty fees.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 03 October 2004 by long-time-dead
Surely when your credit limit is reached the sale is not authorised ?
Posted on: 03 October 2004 by Two-Sheds
quote:
Surely when your credit limit is reached the sale is not authorised ?
It should be. I've hit my credit limit before and had transactions refused. I don't know what happens if you are at your credit limit and you pay at a place that just takes a carbon copy of the card rather than checking electronically.