Early Kan Is in mint condition - should I buy them?

perhaps you should rescue them from the 'Kan Gutters**', before it's too late!.

Take a look at this and this on the Flat Earth Audio site for some of the background.

Short answer is Kan I's rock a bit more, boogie a bit more.... Kan II's show some taming of the wayward tendencies of the Kan I, mostly at the expense of a)efficiency, b) losses (small percentage) of Rock-i-ness and Boogie, and an overll more even presentation. So it's horses for courses.

Please note, before a KanI v KanII flame war is started, that we are talking small differences in character and a Kan I is a Kan, and a Kan II is a Kan. They both time like bastards, and have tremendous flat-earth virtues - kay?

I reckon that if you're at all tempted, why not? £200 sounds like a good prie if they're in the condition you mention.

**a marauding gang of Isobarik Owners who scour the lands, preying on innocent Kans, raping them of their bass drivers to feed the appetites of their multi-drivered leviathan monitor systems, and later discarding empty 'Kabinets' in their wake. Think of the Kan I as on the 'endangered' list!

Rico - musichead

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I have the unique opportunity to buy an old pair of walnut Kan Is with Kan I stands(serial number 189xx)in mint condition for just under GBP 200.

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One further addition to Rico's points is that wood finish Kans are really quite rare ( 80s speakers were nearly all black ash). A pair of mint walnut ones are IMHO worth quite a bit more than 200 quid, especially with stands (though the Mk 1 stands are not as good as the Mk II ones). I would buy them, compare them, and sell the looser on you may well make on the deal.

My opinion on the Mk I and Mk II is that there is actually very little between them, though the IIs are cleaner and better on piano, but need far more amp to do it. They both sound like Kans, and groove like their life depends on it. Kans do timing.

If you don't want them, or want to ditch your IIs, I know Vuk is after a pair.

Tony.

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I brought them to my Linn dealer to see if the drivers (midrange and tweeter on one speaker and tweeter on the other) can be replaced and at what cost.

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Not too hopeful for you here I'm afraid. The Linn modified Kef B110s are no longer available as Kef have ceased production, I believe Linn have run out of stock. The tweeters are still available, but I heard a rumour that Linn want something stupid like 300 quid for a matched pair.

As an alternative, Wilmslow Audio allegedly have a suitable bass driver from another manufacturer (I don't know any further details). The early Kans had a Scanspeak tweeter that I believe is still available, again try Wilmslow - it will be radically cheaper than from Linn, though you will miss out on whatever they do to mod them. Alternately try and land a tatty pair of Kans to get drivers out of. Your Kans will probably have the Kef B110, not the later B110B, so if you are want the later ones you will need a pair.

Tony.

Wilmslow Audio even have their own Infopoop forum just like this one, so it might well be worth posting your Kan fixing questions there.

Tony.

PS TF and other volume freaks, why pay more for second hand Kans to gut than the price of the units? I have certainly noticed the UK Kan market has dried up judging by Loot.

I ended up buying the Rega version which is basically the same tweeter but hand doped, so according to Rega a touch better. Total cost around £72 (IIRC) beacause they went straight to my dealer so no separate P&P. Changing them was a bit hard work (I can email you a much longer email with details if you're intersted) but they do seem sweeter than before - although that may be because the old ones were on their way out.

I'd heard the same story about the bass units being discontinued - but as it's the tweeters that tend to go you may be able to pick up a knackered pair with working bass units anyway.
Phil

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(I can email you a much longer email with details if you're intersted)

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Phil, I'm intersted, and am sure others here are too.... if you have the time, post here please!

Rico - musichead

- I used a wallpaper striper squeezed between the grill and the box to get the grills off, this was much easier than I anticipated and the glue was still fairly sticky.

- getting the tweeters out however was a real drag. The mastic used is really springy. I tried a knife, screwdriver and most of the kitchen implements I could find. A reasonably strong kitchen knife was best but I did cause a bit of damage to the baffle. Tim's suggestion of a paint tin opener seems the best option.

- I used some blue gasket sealer bought from a car parts shop when I put the speakers back in.

- I didn't even bother re-gluing the grills - they fit so tightly just pushed in.

- I've gradually acquired the spare 250, SBL naxo, and last week-end the 2nd run of A5 so the next project will be the full active step. I'll let you know how I get on.

Phil

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Activating Kans! I am always glad to hear about others doing
this! I must say that I no longer have the Kans, and wish sometimes that I
never let them go. I now have active Sbl's, which really are a very special
speaker, but a tough one to get right, which at times I'm still not sure
they are working at there best. But that is another story. I had two pairs
of Kans, a MK1 that I enjoyed for about 3 years and then a MK2 pair for
about 7-8 years. The MK1 is not nearly as easy to work with in going active.
The MK2 just makes it a real smooth job and is easily reversible to boot. I
don't know what version you have but either one is fun to do. As far as
grills go and the nasty removal-if you are lucky the mastic/glue that holds
them on may have become brittle by now and it won't be too difficult. I got
a credit card that was ending up in the trash anyway, and used it to slide
down between the grill and side of speaker cabinet. This is a tight fit, but
it will go. Work towards a corner first. As you get the card more or less
seated in the groove between cabinet and grill, take a very slender tool-I
used a really thin butter knife carefully prying up between card and edge of
grill. The main thing here is patience being careful not to damage the grill
material as best as possible, although that can be replaced if needed. The
credit card just gives you a stiff material to pry against without damaging
the cabinet. Usually once a corner is free, it is pretty easy to work your
way around the cabinet popping the grill off. I had one practically fall off
with a little tapping around the edge of the grill. Just know where the
drivers are located before trying this! Once the grills are off, the next
step is getting the drivers out. If you have MK1's, this can be really messy
and somewhat scary. These drivers are sealed with silicone mastic. It is a
real pain getting them out. It is almost guaranteed you will get a bit of
baffle damage and lose some paint on the driver basket. I recommend taking
the bass driver out first-this enables you if your hands are small enough,
to push up through to help get the tweets out. You do not have to get the
tweets out, but it helps get a bit of room and daylight to see what's going
on inside the box, and be able to get the crossovers out. I suppose you
could just clip the wires and leave the crossover in, but I wanted to make
it clean. As far as taking the bass drivers out-patience is the key. I just
pried carefully around the drivers working a bit at a time, taking great
care not to run the screwdriver through the driver or rubber surround. That
would be a real bummer. When I got things loosened up, I used a paint can
lid removal tool, kind of a straight tool with a little lip or edge on the
end. This helped to get under the driver and finish the pry job. You need to
use a small block of wood under the tool to help keep baffle damage to a
minimum. Once you get the drivers out, clean them up as best you can as well
as the baffle board. The next step is figuring out how to add another set of
terminals. I removed the old ones and drilled a couple of holes right above
the old ones. Then I sourced some new plugs from ITT/Pamona. These were
somewhat hard to find here in the US due to the length of the body, so it
would clear the thickness of wood and still provide enough room to solder
and all. I have heard other folks just hardwiring the speaker cable direct,
however if you use NACA5 that would be a real pain! I am sorry I do not have
the part numbers for the sockets for you. If you are in the UK, you may be
able to source replacements directly from Linn. I re-used the wiring from
the x-overs to drivers-it is decent wiring and I didn't want to go changing
things too much and maybe ruin the overall tonal balance somehow. Soldering
in the tight confines is pretty hard but if you plan ahead, you can do a bit
outside of the cabinet. So far this has all centered around MK1 Kans. If you
have 2's, the grill removal will be the same, although there are slight
differences in the board that the cloth is attached to. The drivers have
foam gaskets around them so removal is really easy, just take care not to
tear the gaskets. The crossover is easy to remove-take the nuts off of the
speaker terminals and remove I believe one screw in the x-over board, and it
should come right out. Then you can clip or de-solder leads from board.
Then, you can de-solder the terminal posts from off the board and reuse
them. Solder or ring-terminate your driver leads direct to these terminals,
put it all back together! With the MK1, you can make up gaskets for them
instead of sealing them with silicone. Just make sure the rebated area in
the baffle is really clean, and the driver face as well. I probably have
forgotten something along the way. If you don't understand something let me
know. I apologize that this is really lengthy! As far as the Snaxo goes, if
you are sure it has been set up for Kans and no one has really goofed with
the level adjustments, you should be ready to go. Naim could confirm the
S.N. to see if it is a Kan unit. If in doubt, send it to them for a going
over and they will set the levels. You can set the levels yourself if you
want. I had to play a bit with my treble adjustment as in my room it was a
bit too much. I was active with Kans for about 1 year prior to Sbl. I
really do miss the Kans. They do things so very well, and it just gets
better active. I must warn you on the usual source first nazi rule! Even
though I have a CDI, I feel at times the source really should be better. In
active mode, the midrange just gets better, bass seems to dig a bit deeper,
and everything is more crisp. Sometimes the crispness bordered on being
"edgy" on some discs. Once again it could be source problems. But overall,
for me I had a blast with the active Kan. I would still have them today if I
wasn't a fortunate bastard and be able to afford a pair of Sbl's at the
time. I cannot think of another speaker that I have enjoyed so much for so
long, and I have had a few. Well Phil, I know that I did not answer all your
questions-in fact I can't remember the rest of them. As far as other
suggestions, the forum is always good, the Mana forum also is a good place
to ask, and Neil Mcbrides site has some stuff in there. His site can be
found somewhere in Matt Robinson's or Tony Lonorgons site. Please give me a
shout if I can help anymore! I will let you know if I come up with anything
else that would help. Enjoy those speakers! The main thing is have fun and
don't get too serious about it! At least that is what I keep telling myself!
Take care, Tim
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Does flat-earth mean zilch bass? I still fail to see the excitement in the most coloured cult loudspeaker in the world. I'd rather have a pair of SBLs, but you know I'd never go there

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I have to agree; I find Kans unlistenable, even when setup well. My Kan-owning friend loves them to bits and is over the moon about them, but I find them to give a very brittle, edgy sort of migraine-inducing sound. I liken the sound to how I'd imagine a VERY loud pair of headphones would sound if turned up to max and used as speakers... fast, fairly detailed, energetic, full of mid, but waaaaaay too 'on-edge'.

John

PS. I would dearly love to like Kans, as they're cheap and would fit in with my listening room perfectly... pity

Phil

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I liken the sound to how I'd imagine a VERY loud pair of headphones would sound if turned up to max and used as speakers... fast, fairly detailed, energetic, full of mid, but waaaaaay too 'on-edge'.

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Sorry, but you ain't heard them right. Yes they don't have the greatest bass extention, but when well set up the top end is extended, exceptionally detailed and sweet - definitely not edgy at all. I have heard plenty poorly set up Kans sound as you describe, so I understand your point, but believe me this is correctable. I can prove it.

I have absolutely zero tolerance of grainy or harsh systems, I simply can not listen to them, and as a result of this it took me 13 years before I heard SBLs set up well enough not to sound hideous to my ears. I was comparatively lucky with Kans, I heard a pair set up well in about 1988, and even though I had heard them sound crap before this, I knew I would be able to get them to work with some persistence.

Tony.

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Sorry, but you ain't heard them right

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Hmmm... ISTR system was fronted by a CD3.5, I can't recall the model of preamp, 250 power amp,
hicap on the preamp. Kans were on the Linn stands, seven feet apart on the short wall of a
12x16' room (approx.), firing down the length.
Interconnects were standard Naim; the Kans were about an inch max from the wall, firing with no toe in; listening position was approx. 12' away, on the short wall at the other end of the room.

Admittedly, the sound was detailed, airy, fast and energetic but very very harsh sounding. The sound to me was like a speaker on the verge of its capabilities. It did have virtues I enjoyed (detail, PRaT) but it made the music sound a bit PA-like (i.e. colouration, emphasis on the midband, all pace and no finesse).

My friend has since added some Mana and apparently that's tamed the Kan sound a bit, but I haven't heard it to comment.

Prior to that, I had another friend with Kans on a non-Naim system (I think it was a Cyrus or something) and that just sounded a bit deflated and overly-coloured - it didn't have the pace of my friend's all-Naim setup).

I'm not knocking the Kans per se, only suggesting that they are not everyone's cup of tea (by a long chalk). I for one couldn't live with them, although their diminutive size would be extremely handy in my room... my speakers all tend to be floorstanders which take up valuable floorspace and require distance from the walls (thus intruding into the room).

John

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Admittedly, the sound was detailed, airy, fast and energetic but very very harsh sounding.

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Personally I would blame the CD3.5 or system setup, not the Kans for the harshness (the CD3.5 is quite good musically, though it is too grainy for my ears). There is also very much more to setup than simply placing the stuff in aproximately the right place. A bad floor or crap mains block is all it takes to knacker the sound from Kans (or any other truly revealing speaker). I am also assuming you are not a driver busting volume freak - Kans don't do volume, this does not concern me as I listen quite quietly.

As I say, mine ain't harsh, I can prove it if you want to hear 'em!

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Prior to that, I had another friend with Kans on a non-Naim system (I think it was a Cyrus or something)...

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No need to comment about that one then!

Tony.

When we first got the Kans going they were OK - about what you'd expect for a small speaker - fairly detailed, a bit thin, a bit harsh, at the limit of their volume potential.

We fiddled with the system (different CD outputs / preamp inputs, earthing issues) - quite an improvement.

We then re-positioned them a few times (an inch or two at a time) and re-installed the stands until suddenly they just sprang to life. Wow!

Now this is how a speaker should sound - the Earth IS flat!

The sound filled out, was clean, fast, detailed and went loud enough without the slightest strain that my ears were ringing a bit by the end of the session! Bass was far better than you'd have any reason to expect - enough to make you realise that most speakers are a million miles away from the bass keeping up with everything else. Your attention is only really drawn to a lack in the bass when playing really low-down stuff.

Unfortunately, breaking the sound down to describe it in this way just can't convey how fantastically musical and 'right' the whole sound was. I'd describe the sound as totally controlled, but you won't understand what I mean by that unless you've heard something similar yourself.

Although the system did include a NAP250, bear in mind that the CD doesn't come within a country mile of the CDX (I know - we compared them on a different occaision).

Is there a more pure example of the Flat-Earth speaker genre?

cheers, Martin

[This message was edited by Martin Payne on FRIDAY 17 November 2000 at 00:21.]

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...at least it will be when he gets fed-up with that bloody Westlife CD!

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Ye gods, you can't do that to Kans, its cruel.

Tony.

I was pleased to see your detailed posts on activating Kans. I have sought info into breaking into my 19xxx vintage units on and off for some years ( including directly from Ivan Tiefenbrun) but had not enough to feel confident of taking the plunge. My main reason for doing so was purely to update the xover components. Can you tell me what the passive xover components are and whether there are any caps there that would benefit from replacement?
Thanks if you can help.

David

Setup is also critical with these speakers, there's no pseudo science to it, just basic physics. They need to be as close to a rear wall as is possible without speaker cables / plugs coming into contact with the wall. They must be absolutely rigid with no movement in the floor / stand / speaker interfaces. Filling just the front and rear cross-member of the base of the sand with lead shot aids stability here, without coupling any additional mass to the speaker.

They never fail to tell me what is going on further up the audio chain (be that good or bad) which is why I still have them after many years.

In larger rooms they will suffer, owing to poor sensitivity and limited power handling, but in the right environment they are truly awesome.

They have plenty of bass, although they don't go particularly deep, but at least they don't suffer from the horrid effect of some 'speakers I've had in the past where individual bass notes come and go due to peaky uneven response, they roll off smoothly and as JV posted in the past, you don't necessarily need the fundamental notes to hear what is going on at the bottom end, providing the harmonic structure is replayed correctly.

You can hear what and how bass is being played with them, but they won't shake the foundations.

(and they really DO time like their lives depend upon it!)

Andy.

Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com

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I am still hunting for a pair of kan (II if possible) plus stands. What is the average price generally asked ?

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About 150-250 quid. Wood finishes are far rarer than black, and thus tend to go for the higher prices (I would kill for Rob Holt's Santos Rosewood pair of IIs). Kan II stands go for about 50 quid. Often both are sold together which usually means a better deal for the buyer. Vintage does not seem to make any difference to the price, condition and colour is everything, both the Mk I and the Mk II seem to have equal numbers of fans.

Tony.

Kans were the very first Hifi loudspeaker that I heard - a bloke at the office was selling them (at what seemed to be an astronmical price to a then hifi newbie). When he demoed them I really thought they sounded crap - shouty and very tiring.

Years later, a friend of mine acquired a pair of early black ash ones - with the protruding speaker terminals - and I borrowed them. I was hooked and got a pair of circa '85 teak ones with Kan II stands.

I have had to replace a tweeter (finger damage) which cost about £80 from a Linn dealer. No other problems other than that.

I use them with a NAP140/NAC42.5 and generally they make good noises. Anything less and they can sound very poor. I also have a Nait I which is fine as long as the volume is not turned up too much.

Longer term I want to get a really good CD player (I have a Cambridge CD4SE - I have read those posts - it is a very good if tacky player). Any suggestions?

Small off-topic question. I have acquired a 2nd hand early Hicap (circa '85). This is in perfect condition but does anyone know if it is possible to get the plastic sticker type fascia still so that it exactly matches my NAP140 (cira '87)? I know it's a service question but anyone done it recently?

Oh, and in answer to the question: Get them.

John.

Maybe it's a silly question,but i hear many people here talking about Kan's (and Naim) really excell in timing.

ehh,...well, what does timing in music actually mean ?!

I mean, I DO understand when people are mentioning things like tight bass,dynamics,fast,open and/or forward mids,sweet highs,etc but what exactly is meant by timing.
(or PRaT)

I do have a slight feeling this question is asked before some time ago. sorry for that.

Greetings,
Alco

O,btw.Anders: My question on the answer "should I buy them" would also be a 100% YESSS. Especially mint Walnut is an extra bonus for the fair price.

[This message was edited by Alco on THURSDAY 22 November 2001 at 06:15.]

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Originally posted by Anders:
the dealer says they sound a little thin compared to Kan IIs but he says this could be due to the fact that they have been so little used and they still need some run in (!)

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Well, possibly, but the very early incarnations of the Kan-I were noticeably leaner, so I'm told then even later Kan-Is.

cheers, Martin

You want KanII stands, but that's probably fairly obvious.

Cheers

John