Is there anybody......out there

I'm just curious as to why everybody thinks the forum is so bad ? I only very occasionally used the old forum, and then only searched a few times, back when I was contemplating getting a prefix,and to be honest, I dont remember the forum at all, so I cant really comment on the old style.

However, this does not seem so bad, I agree the smilies etc are a waste of time, they dont add a great deal of benefit, and I've only managed to get them to work once anyway.

I saw in some thread, probably one of Vuk's, about not being able to tell when there were new posts , seems dead easy to me, I've just got into the habit of leaving the forum up and running in a browser window and refresh the screen whenever I have the time. By looking at the time of the last post prior to pressing the refersh button, and the time after the refresh it's pretty easy to tell if there have been any new posts.

I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames for actually saying the new forum isn't so bad, but as the whole point of a forum is to express a view point, I don't care.

Later

Simon

Naim do not really undertsand the wired world. They do not understand the net's resistance to censorship. They have been hostile to Mana enthusiasts. They have little feel for netiquette, for example when Mike Hanson ticked Paul Stephenson off for editing his answers into peoples posts he replied

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I have replied once or twice in that way, I would hardly call that a habit. It was appropriate to do it. Thats why I have the admin badge.

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Personally, I visit the forum much less freqently, and seldom find anyhthing I want to read, let alone contribute to.

If it does wither away I will miss it.

Nic P

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They really do not understand why experienced net users hate this software compared to the previous software. They thought they could ignore all the protests and it would all settle down.

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Why not move it to a newsgroup. This could be run completly independant of Naim. The only problem I can see with this is that some of the contributors would have do agree to be moderators, so that all the spam and advertising could be cut out.

This should be relatively little effort, seems to work well for rec.audio.highend. It's a low volume news group, but so would any rec.audio.naim or whatever.

Simon

I think I'll leave it to Paul to respond to the little insults regarding his "poor feel" etc.

What I'd like to put straight is your accusation regarding Mana enthusiasts. This is inflammatory nonsense.

All we've done is ask/demand of certain people, some of whom help out at Mana exhibition rooms, to cease using our forum to sell their own products.

[This message was edited by Mark Tucker on TUESDAY 05 September 2000 at 16:04.]

My perception remains that Naim is hostile to Mana. In PR (and the forum is part of your PR) perceptions are the only reality. I have frequented the Mana forum (where I recently got a bloody nose) and I would also say I perceive hostility to Naim there.

I am old enough to remember when the Entente Cordiale broke down between Naim and Linn, and at that time felt sad that two great British Hi-Fi company's which shared so many values were no longer friends.

Given I think it was you who said that Naim were developing equipment racks then you are certainly going after their core business. Pre-announcing such a move (which caused some posters to say they would delay purchases until the Naim racks were available) is a highly aggressive commercial tactic.

Can I ask other forum contributors - do they share my perceptions?

Hope I am wrong.

Nic P

Is not Mana, the company and its products, different from Mana enthusiasts?

I make no apologies for aggressive marketing, it's survival of the fittest.

The very company you claim this marketing is aimed against recently introduced a range of power amplifiers and interconnects, and pre-announced them by many months.

That's life...

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Is not Mana, the company and its products, different from Mana enthusiasts?

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An interesting point, but I think you will agree that the average forum visitor may find it easy to confuse where your aggression was directed, as I did.

Nic P

"I make no apologies for aggressive marketing, it's survival of the fittest."

Thats fair enough you have a business to run and a responsibility to the staff and shareholders.

" The very company you claim this marketing is aimed against recently introduced a range of power amplifiers and interconnects, and pre-announced them by many months."

If memory serves me correctly both the Nap 500 and the Stealth were announced at about the same time (give or take a month or so). Both had their first public outings at shows at similar times. Both had delays in transitioning from late version prototypes into production and finally both are now available. Surely pre-announcement applies equally to both or neither.

As for the cable I seem to remember that John Watson said he was trying to source a cable he had found many years ago, and used with a Naim CDS1, for their new amplifiers. He then announced that the folks at Chord had identified it for him and were sourcing it for him. People then asked about getting it for their systems and presumably he saw a business opportunity and went for it. As many posters on this forum (but not Naim representatives I hasten to add) have claimed that Naim are not in the cable business I'm surprised this merited a mention.

The post you made about Naim possibly looking into tables sometime next year was however very odd. Its the first time I have come across Naim pre-anouncing something in such a way. Not your usual style at all. In the context in which the post was made (Vuk being enthusiastic about Mana stands) it really struck a chord.

After an innocuous (IMHO) thread on the old forum was deleted because many people were enthusiastic about the Stealth cables there was some considerable acrimony. I questioned Naim's attitude to this forum. Was it to be a site that encouraged open debate even on competitors products or did Naim want it to purely discuss Naim products? I thought the answer indicated that open debate was the way. Is this the case?

I think it is time that you (Naim) came out of the long grass. Can we discuss prdoucts from other manufacturers on this forum? If not fine. It will be a much less interesting place to visit and may whither and die. There are definately signs of this already. At the end of the day Naim pay for the hosting of the forum so your rules should be adhered to. However, the people who truly own the forum are its contributors. Without them it is nothing.

Regards

Neil

I did not say I/we were aggressive towards the company or its products either!

Neil

I can't help but feel you've taken my comments about furniture research a little out of context. At the time, a contributor (I can't remember who) asked if it was true we were developing something, I replied saying we were thinking about it. In other words, I answered truthfully, that's all, I had no hidden agenda; in retrospect perhaps I was a little naive.

In answer to your main question, we have no problem with people discussing products other than Naim and I'm amazed that a smart guy like you could draw that conclusion. Mmmm, Devil's advocate maybe?!

To reiterate, we DO have a problem with representatives (paid or otherwise) of other manufacturers promoting their wares on our forum. I refuse to accept that there's anything wrong with this policy.

I don't think that the useful activity in this forum is much less than in the old one - they just go through quiet and busy periods. It was veyr busy the other day. I think there's less background noise in here, which shouldn't be confused with less activity.

Trevor

Seriously, you said

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Is not Mana, the company and its products, different from Mana enthusiasts?

I make no apologies for aggressive marketing, it's survival of the fittest.

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The obvious interpretation was that you made no apologies for aggressively marketing against Mana and may the fittest survive.

Nic P

I should never have taken the bait...

Lets try to be sensible.

This new forum, be it permanent or temporary, is OK by me. There are over 570 members and its been fairly busy except for the last few days, and there has always been a peaks and valley's, so from me at least, plus the majoritory of the others, no complaints.

Yesterday, for the first time in many months, I perused the Mana forum and JW/Mana appears to have has as much charm as a bear with a sore head.

He is positively insulting to all and saundry and PS is a paragon of virtue in comparison.

I also noticed Nic, that you were also on the receiving end of JW's abuse for asking a simple question and I have never witnessed you suffering such derision on this forum.

Even I got a mention (narrow minded) and I have never even contributed to their forum.

I suggest we become grateful for what is still a sensible, and in the main, well managed forum.

We all behave reasonably well and contributors on this forum who conduct themselves in an intelligent matter are, surprisingly, quite prone to using four lettered words in an abusive manner in Mana's forum. If you encourage childish behaviour, you will get it and that ethos, for some unknown reason, seems to run through Mana from top to bottom.

Is that what you really want this forum to become like ?

Regards

Mick

"There has been much rubbish over the years on our forums but your latest offerings really take the biscuit, if you do not like it then stay away."

I really liked the old forum. It had some excellent posts with many interesting reasoned discussions and sub-threads. I enjoyed reading a good many threads and also contributing to them. I feel the current forum is lacking the vitality of the old. If it dies through lack of interest from the users I'll be . I had noted over the last few months a change in the general attitude on the forum that seemed to me to be a shift away from it being the old open venue I knew and loved. So I asked a straight question. Mark has chosen to reassure me that the intent is for the forum to be open . If thats the case and it improves then I'll stick around if its all the same to you. If you'd sooner I leave I will. As I have said, its your house I just want to make sure I don't break the house rules. I did suggest some on the old forum but have failed to find much of a statement since.

I'm not sure though which part of my post was so "rubbish as to take the biscuit" . Mark had made some statements about pre-anouncing products that did not stack up with my recollection of events. I posted my recollection and flagged the stands thing as it related to my concerns regarding the intent/direction of the forum. Again Mark has responded to my comments thoughtfully. You on the other hand merely wish to dismiss the whole post as rubbish (way to go on the reasoned discussion front).

In case you had not guessed it is generally considered very bad form for the moderator to place comments within someone elses post. This is normally reserved for the most extreme cases (e.g. someone trying to sell their products on your forum which I have not seen happening here). This was pointed out earlier in this thread and you tap danced all over the guy. Nic picked up on the same element and you regard his post as rubbish. Your aptitude for the post of moderator is really impressive.

For the record for those who think I'm some sinister stooge I love Naim amps, the CDX and SBLs I've not yet heard better. I love my Linn LP12 I've not yet heard better. I love Mana supports I've not yet heard better (and they improve the sound of the rest of my kit which I had not thought possible). I have advocated the use of all these elements to friends and colleagues (several of whom have bought after listening first of course).

Regards

Neil

Regards

Nei

At risk of ruining the fun can anyone give an update on whether we may yet get different forum software or are naim now planning to try and enhance this? I am a little concerned that there may be a perception that we're all getting used to it when I suspect many are really just tolerating it for the time being. The only comments on this seem to be from Vuk and Mike - I'd quite like to hear from naim how things are going.

I would reply to the chap at the top of the thread who asked what was wrong with this software but as I can't reply to your post directly in the thread and because absence of a discussion thread on screen prevents me seeing who you are easily (without opening up additional browser windows) I don't think I will.

I rest my case.

Jonathan

We have no problem as we have said ssoooooo many times with discussions about other peoples kit, we have said we object to some part time sales pitches from a small element.
PLEASE ALL NOTE
We have no problem with the MANA people, we like their racks along with a HUTTER, QUADRASPIRE,BASE,and I am sure there are others.

We have also posted rules(which seem to have got lost in the move, I will re-boot) relating to this forums content. As to my post within a post well tut, tut.
Neil please stay we all love the idea of a great forum. I know the joke, well this is no great forum, well boo yah!!

[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 05 September 2000 at 20:24.]

Isn't it nice to hear the Canadians quiet for a change ? Maybe they've discovered that actually using their NAIM system for the purpose it was originally intended is more worthwhile than deciding what everybody else in the world should be using?

To reply to Jonathons original post - difficult under the circumstances - happenstance old boy - happenstance -enjoy your listening.

Regards

P.errr

I've been busy (trying to find a replacement for this silly forum software). Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Now how can I stir up that Manana lover who called me a mullet?

Regards

P.err

Speaking of whch, last night's edition offered an explanation of Oasis' behaviour - that the boys' mother raised them on beer when they were infants.

Revelatory.

Vik

so.... what's next?

Hifi in reverse indeed.

Regards P.yeah

Regarding the new format, I believe that we all sing off the same hymn sheet. I take it as read that we would all like the forum to continue, but that it needs some radical tweaking, if not a new host. To this end lets keep talking & work towards that goal.

As for free speech, that would appear to be slightly different. I guess the reason for the existence of the forum is that Naim can hear what they need to know, and that the contributors can say what they want to say. The dilemma here is that the most outspoken contributors that tell it the way it is, which is exactly what Naim want to know, if a little uncomfortable at times, feel that they may be censored if they step beyond slightly fuzzy boundaries.

IMHO I think that we should be allowed to say ( within clear, but not unreasonably restrictive guidelines ) what we want.

I personally feel that the forum has a healthy future if both Naim & the contributors have mutual respect for each other.

Bob.

"I think it is time that you (Naim) came out of the long grass" Part of the biscuit."

Thanks for the clarification.

"We have no problem as we have said ssoooooo many times with discussions about other peoples kit,"

Great glad to hear it. My post was trying to flag though that some of the other things that had been posted could be taken as giving a different impression (sorry if I got your comments out of context Mark T). Call me a paranoid android if you like (altogether now YOUR A PARANOID ANDROID) but given as you say "We have also posted rules(which seem to have got lost in the move, I will re-boot) relating to this for content" it may not be too surprising I was wondering and questioning.

"we have said we object to some part time sales pitches from a small element."

Quite agree about the sales pitch bit. It also seems that you are happy with folks (other manufacturers?) correcting posts by us mere mortals too (e.g. the Spendor thread) which is good.

"As to my post within a post well tut, tut."

I'll give you a slightly unfair analogy. You go to a new restaurant in Salisbury just opened by a man from Antartica (Hopefully that bit can't offend anyone) who has all Antartican staff. Your meal is brought to you and just as you are about to tuck into a mouthful a waiter who is standing next to you lets off a loud and malodourous fart (I know Mick P a four letter word). I'm sure you would be a little upset as this is considered to be the height of bad manners in this country (Clare Rayner once said that the height of intimacy between a couple was being able to fart in each others presence without feeling embarassed). Its not the Antarticans fault as he does not know its bad manners in this country. He just needs a little extra info to stop him offending the other guests. It may seem silly and petty but it is netiquette.

"Neil please stay we all love the idea of a great forum."

Okay. No hard feelings?

Regards

Neil

P.S. There is a weird quirk with the software that seems to cut off the last letter in a message. In this case the 'l' in Neil. It makes it look like I can't even spell my own name. Thats not true. I can. Just need someone to check I got it right after