F1 season so far

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Originally posted by JohanR:
How to get F1 exiting again?
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- Ban pittstops for fuel.


JohanR

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Sorry to disappoint you mate, but they introduced fuel pitstops to try and make races more interesting after Williams kept winning championships unchallenged a few years back!

I did watch the Silverstone race though I have to admit that the TV was on mute and I had the hifi on in the background - probably the best way to watch a race these days I reckon! - but I have to say I was quite impressed with the quality of the racing - more overtaking manoeuvres than I ever imagined. I put this down to the Silverstone circuit itself and cannot understand for the life of me why this circuit is under threat from Ecclestone & co. More a case of F1 shooting itself in the foot if you ask me.

JonR

"Even during other dominant periods Lotus,Williams and Maclaren you still felt that there was a chance of some one else winning"
Erm, even when McLaren won all but one race in a season, and that one loss was due to a Williams stand-in driver having a collision?
Surely the FIA and the teams can look back and remember that even with just 450bhp, the DFV engined cars were still very fast, still sounded great, and were more than capable of entertaining.
The never ending quest for more power and grip is all very well, and fascinating in itself, but what does it really achieve? The engines they use now, sitting at 17-19,000rpm most of the time don't really sound all that good. A bit like Stuka dive-bombers. And the turn-in that the drivers have available at high-speed corners is astonishing, but so what?
Unfortunately, no matter what the rule makers think up next, we can't forget the technology.

Tony

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Originally posted by JonR:
Sorry to disappoint you mate, but they _introduced_ fuel pitstops to try and make races more interesting after Williams kept winning championships unchallenged a few years back!

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I thought it was brought in specifically to help Ferrari who were threatening to pack F1 in at the time.

Perhaps Steve. In fact I remember that at the same time as Williams could as good as guarantee the championship to whoever their No1 driver happened to be at the time (Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve), Ferarri's notable lack of performance was often the focus of much comment.

That was, of course, until a certain Mr Schumacher came on board, and the rest, as they say, is history....

JonR

BLT's recipie for exciting F1;
Steel brakes - more chance of overtaking under braking
Lower downforce - more chance of overtaking everywhere else
More mechanical grip (bigger tyres) - regain some of the speed lost through lower downforce
No compulsory fuel stops
Manual gearshifts

In order to find a way of making F1 more exciting, first look at what we have. What is exciting about it now? Only the start really - & that must be because they are all together fighting for the first corner. So how would we make the rest of the race like the start? Only by keeping all the cars bunched up as much as possible and removing the option of pitting to locate clear track.
Don't know how it could be done, but I think that is the type of thing needed. That is why bike racing is so good - because they are all bunched up together.

What I said was you didn't KNOW who was going to win. The fact that Maclaren won all but one was an aside(at least their drivers were allowed to race). You feel now even if MS is last or starts from the pitlane he will win,if he does n't take him self out again.
Steel brakes, single plane and plain wings back and front no end plates. Flat bottom all the way front to back. Make the car reach the minimum weight(increased) so they can't put the balance of minimum weight where the teams want to put it.Carry ALL the fuel for the race make the designers do the job right. Fatter SLICK tyres, real racing cars race on slicks.

Howard

This should help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3900217.stm

Tony

ps. There have been a lot of bike races where the best rider on the best bike storms off to a safe lead then cruises to a win. The current motoGP is very good, but once the Yamaha is fully sorted, I don't think Rossi's competitors stand a chance.

The new rules are probably going in the right direction. Having to use the same tires for qualification and the whole race should result in fewer pit stops (or?). And those who are inclined so can't use the last laps before a pitstop to set a couple of qualification speed laps to get in front of the competition because there won't be a new set of tires waiting to replace your worne out ones.

Of course there hardly won't be any money saved in this scheme, but it's not my problem.

JohanR

It seems to me one of the main problems is the FIA are trying to meet two (probably) mutually exclusive objectives -

1. Increased driver and spectator safety.
2. Increased spectator appeal.

David

David,
Just don't forget that in the 60s and 70s F1 cars had a lot less power, less efficient chassis and ancient tyres. Yet the spectacle was there.
450-600bhp should be plenty in a half ton car. Especially with 'hard' tyres.
Oh, and racing V8s sound miles better than V10s sat at what could be 20,000rpm if left to develop.

Tony

Here's a more in depth look at the proposed changes:

http://www.formula1.com/news/1920.html

Tony

To see great racing try the F2 Stock Cars at your local oval circuit. Of course one major difference is that the best drivers start at the back - the result is loads of overtaking. Perhaps F1 could adopt the same policy?

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Just don't forget that in the 60s and 70s F1 cars had a lot less power, less efficient chassis and ancient tyres. Yet the spectacle was there.

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It's also worth remembering that in that era the FIA were not 'safety obsessed', we weren't saddled with F1 circuits that resembled Kart tracks and the emphasis was on making the cars go faster not slower.

David

If you let the cars get faster and faster (how quick would the cars be if left to get on with ground effects and turbos?) then the circuits have to change. The spectators and cameras are pushed further and further back behind more and more fencing. Not a pretty sight.
Even now I don't bother taking a camera to race tracks. There really is no point.
MS is a racer, as he showed in his very first F1 race. He can crack under pressure, but hey, I bet Mick Parry can too!

Tony

I'm not going to criticise Senna for anything. He is my all time great, and he's dead. I was fortunate enough to be at Donington in '93 to watch him make everyone, even Prost, look like complete amateurs. Watching him braking for the Old Hairpin was very special. Lap after lap he was the only one to have his brake discs glowing orange.. A rare treat.

Tony

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OK, a challenge then; name three great MS overtaking manouveurs

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Spain 1996

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When Hill hit the wall, the Schumacher fans cheered loudly, but they would be doing more cheering in the laps ahead as Michael carved past Berger on lap five, Alesi on lap nine and Villeneuve on lap 12. Once in the lead he simply drove away from the field, setting a string of fastest laps which saw his lead go from 2.9s on lap 12, to 6.6s on lap 13; 10.5 on lap 14; 14.9s on lap 15 and so on. His 14th lap would stand as the fastest lap of the race - a 1m45.517s - which would be 2.2secs faster than any other lap by any other driver in the course of the afternoon.

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Australia 2002

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In the end Juan Pablo hit some oil on lap 17 and went wide in Turn One. In a flash Schumacher was ahead and from then on it was like the FA18s which had been flying around before the race began. Michael lit up the afterburner of the Ferrari (figuratively-speaking) and off he went. The gap went out at an embarrassing rate of knots . At the end of lap 17 it was 2.2s, a lap later it was 4.7s then 6.2s, 7.9s, 9.2s, 11.3s and so on...

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Oh, and just remind me when Senna cracked under pressure.

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When he unprompted put it in the wall at Monaco?
When he took Prost out at the start of the Japanese GP?

Paul

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:

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Oh, and just remind me when Senna cracked under pressure.

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When he unprompted put it in the wall at Monaco?
When he took Prost out at the start of the Japanese GP?

Paul

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not quite, the first was a loss of concentration after being told to back off, the second was a deliberate act of revenge.

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Originally posted by Basil:

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OK, a challenge then; name three great MS overtaking manouveurs

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Spain 1996
Australia 2002

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I'm not 100% sure of the circuit - might have been Malaysia 1999 - but the time he ran Ralf wide in a corner to allow Eddie Irvine to pass both of them.

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not quite, the first was a loss of concentration after being told to back off, the second was a deliberate act of revenge.

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Both related to pressure, IMO.

Paul

I think Monaco was to do with boredom/loss of concentration. Suzula was sheer bloody mindedness and a belief that he was invincible, possibly brought on by the red mist. It's pretty much what MS did to Hill in Australia subsequently - and achieved the same result. When all else fails, fight dirty. Tried the same thing on JV at Herez (sp?) - but you can't allways win a championship by taking the other guy out - nice try though.

Cheers

Harry

ISTR Mansell interlocking wheels somewhere with Senna and Senna ceding...

OTOH every great driver ever has made mistakes, however induced. Senna's fatal accident was likely pressure related.

Paul

Genlemen,tomorrow is the 'Day of Champions' at Donington.Call in sick (or deranged, BF) ,but get along and see the lads and their bikes.You can even get a chance to speak to the poor sods who have to put the machines back together after it has gone horizontal at Jesussss... mph.A grand day out.You may even see this old git and his lovely daughter.Cheers Tony.

I'm saving my day-out tokens for September 11th/12th. It's a Ferrari festival (plus other cars allowed!) at Donington and should have on track demo's of F1 cars from the Berger/Alesi era as well as a couple of recent cars.
These festivals really are worth going to, if the weather is ok, as it makes a change to hear just one or two cars at a time instead of 20. And they don't hold back.

Tony