F1 season so far

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Tyre pressure, I think ...

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Rather 'going too fast too early after the restart with Schumacher close behind pressure'.

P

The true fans would never admit the possibility. Senna was a God, he can't have made a human mistake.

I think he fell off under pressure at Barcelona in 1992(?). Very wet race, being caught by Alesi and Schumacher.

Paul

Paul
BS

Paul you're talking absolute nonsense!! Senna raced with constant pressure from Alain Prost another all time great in the sport and I may add in the same team for 2 years.
He made very few mistakes during his racing career, and Imola was not one of them due to pressure.

It's well documented in various articles and books that the Benetton was using illegal software for Traction/Launch Control which was later discovered by the FIA.the reason why the Benetton was so quick.

Schumacher is lucky that he's racing in an era where the competition is pretty poor,(I know that's not his fault)not just drivers but the teams as well. There's no doubting he's the best of his generation of drivers. He may be the greatest statisically of all time, but statistics don't tell the whole story. Where is the Prost of the era to challenge him if he's the Senna?? there isn't anyone!

He may be great, but he's certainly not the greatest IMHO and many other experts opinions as well.

Clive

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He may be the greatest statisically of all time, but statistics don't tell the whole story.

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Which part of the story do statistics fail to cover?

Well said Clive. I agree.

Howard

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Which part of the story do statistics fail to cover?

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The way a championship was won, for me Damon Hill was one of the greats the way he raced and won. Not a opinion that is fashionable but it says it all for me. Same reason that Sterling Moss is considered a great driver even though he won no world championships.

MS is an excellent driver, the laptimes he put together in the Benneton when stuck in 5th gear was nothing short of amazing. He changed the game somewhat in his personal fitness and the the way that the team is completely built around him, including the design of the car and not just the setup. This has been done in a way that Senna could only dream off and would probably have baulked at. It is all a little too cynical and self serving for my taste and I think F1 the SPORT is the poorer for it. I

They have been showing the races from 10 years ago here in the U.S. on cable and the racing was soooo much better in every respect.

Michael Schumacher a fantastic driver, yes but a great driver? Hmmmm....

Andy

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Which part of the story do statistics fail to cover?

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They fail to cover the level of competition he's up against. Let's play devils advocate here and look at what Prost might have achieved statistically if Senna had not raced in the same era has him.
I'm no Prost fan, but the guy was pretty special,and he was the man to beat at the time. I'm sure if someone could be bothered to trawl through the record books and take Senna's results away, Prost would of I guess, won at least 6 titles, 70 plus race wins and probably 60 plus pole positions, impressive stuff by anyone's standards

That just shows the level of competition Senna was up against. Most knowlegable people would have Senna and Prost in their all time top ten of greats. Who can you say that of, apart from Schumacher in the past 10 years.

I've read enough books on Senna to know of his ability behind the wheel of a race car. The stuff being reported about Schumacher's driving abilities today, Senna did as well, and not just in Formula 1, also in his early racing days. One example being in his Formula 3000 days I think, was he drove virtually for a whole race without brakes and had to slow the car down by gear changes and lifting, and yes, he also won that race, stuff of legend I think.

If there are any doubts about Senna's place at the top of the history books, they didn't survive Donnington 93 most people know what he did there.

Clive

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They fail to cover the level of competition he's up against.

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Totally irrelevant, how can we know how Raikkonen, Alonso, Montoya or Hakkinen would have fared against Senna or Prost.

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BS

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You're suggesting that Senna didn't fall off in the rain at Barcelona in 92?

Paul

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Totally irrelevant, how can we know how Raikkonen, Alonso, Montoya or Hakkinen would have fared against Senna or Prost.

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We don't know how they would have fared, and you only can accurately compare drivers when they're in the same team with the same car and equal status. (Prost & Senna Mclaren 88/89) My point was how many of those mentioned above would make anyone's top ten of all time greats. Besides we know roughly how Hakkinen fared to Senna and Prost, not very well, he did race for a few years against them.

If Mr Scumacher is so great, why does he need the safety net of a contract to stipulate that his team mates are not allowed to race him, dare we mention Austria 2002 again.

Clive

I don't think anyone can doubt Schumacher's skills, but he also benefits greatly from

• Having a team totally built around him and commited to his success above his team-mate.
  
• A chassis/engine combination which is to all intents and purposes 'bullet-proof' (so no embarassing FTFs due to mechanical failure).
  
• A remarkably clever tactician in Ross Brawn to get him out of trouble when the going gets tough.
  
• As stated previously, a contract which prevents the only man in similarly competitive equipment from effectively racing against him.
  

All in all, with those advantages his results are not surprising, but is he a great racer?
David

In the days when Schumacher drove for Benneton, and Ferrari were deep in the doldums, didn't we used to think it criminal that the only true one-make old school racing team were so bogged down with bureaucracy it didn't ever stand a chance?
So who turned it around then? Without Schumacher it wouldn't have happened, and it is very sad that with all that they have achieved, this is the outcome.
It's like they say - Be careful what you wish for............

Re:Senna

Last I heard one theory was excess suspension compression causing the underbelly to make contact with the road surface thus causing a disruption in the the ground effects. All of this equalls going straight instead of turning.
There were reports of sparks comming from the underbelly in corners as well as on straights.

Will we ever really know the cause of the crash?

regards,

michael

What turned Ferrari out of the doldrums, the comandetori(sp) dying helped. They could then build a car with a decent chassis instead of just a powerful engine in a shopping trolly chassis. Derek Bell recalls the post race de-briefs as 3hrs on the motor 10 mins on the chassis tyres etc. Nothing changed much until the old man passed on.
Schui may have some input in team format but the way most people talk he designed the cars made the tubs and fabricated all the metal parts too.
RE Senna the tyre pressures were low and still building up after the pace car hence the bottoming, a possible slow puncture(carbon shard?) as well. The on board data seemed to support this. Can't remeber if the steering column breaking was pre or post crash.

Howard

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If Mr Schumacher is so great, why does he need the safety net of a contract to stipulate that his team mates are not allowed to race him, dare we mention Austria 2002 again.

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Big deal, one race.

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Originally posted by Basil:

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If Mr Schumacher is so great, why does he need the safety net of a contract to stipulate that his team mates are not allowed to race him, dare we mention Austria 2002 again.

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Big deal, one race.

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It's not just one race, it's the way the whole team is galvanised around him and him alone. He always gets the spare car not like other teams where the drivers take turns. There have been occasions which again have been documented, of him viewing telemetry from his team mates car for setup purposes if they were faster, but never sharing his telemetry and settings with them. What does that say about his status and contract with the team.

He was once asked by a journalist " Michael do you want to be world champion because you're the best driver, or because you have the best contract?" He didn't answer the question which says it all. The man doesn't want competition from his own team mate, his ego won't allow it!

And another thing Basil, you're picking sentences from my postings, and are trying to use them out of context. Read all the points I don't see you responding with more than a few words. I'd be more than happy to discuss with you any valid points or questions you may have

Clive

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It's not just one race,

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Please list all the races where Rubens has been ordered to let Michael win on the last lap.

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It's not just one race, it's the way the whole team is galvanised around him and him alone. He always gets the spare car not like other teams where the drivers take turns. There have been occasions which again have been documented, of him viewing telemetry from his team mates car for setup purposes if they were faster, but never sharing his telemetry and settings with them. What does that say about his status and contract with the team.

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Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Who was the Journalist?

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Please list all the races where Rubens has been ordered to let Michael win on the last lap.

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This is becoming a bit tiresome Basil.... I'm not trawling through old articles or books to find names dates and times for you. I know what I've read, and heard in interviews. If you want to defend Schumacher, then that's up to you, you're obviously blind to any criticism that me and other people on this thread have said about him, and Ferrari.

I will not be responding to any more of your trivial questions or remarks.

Clive

[This message was edited by cunningplan on Thu 22 July 2004 at 21:47.]

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Originally posted by BigH47:
the comandetori(sp)

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commendatore, I believe

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Do you have any evidence to back this up?

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Didn't think so. So much hearsay has been posted as fact on the subject of Michael Schumacher, it's quite astounding the number of people on Internet fora who have access to Michael & Rubens contracts! And are also privy to the innermost workings of Ferrari.
One wonders they have time to post at all.

Schumacher is lucky that he's racing in an era be the greatest statisically of all time, but Where is the Prost of the era to challenge him if he's the Senna?? there isn't anyone!

Clive[/QUOTE]



Disagree. I firmly believe that Kimi Raikkonen in a decent car will challenge.
I really think the guys has the goods. Whether he ever gets a drive good enough is another matter..
Not holding my breath.

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Disagree. I firmly believe that Kimi Raikkonen in a decent car will challenge.
I really think the guys has the goods. Whether he ever gets a drive good enough is another matter..
Not holding my breath.

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I do agree with you to a certain extent redeye, I think Raikkonen does have the potential to become become a very good driver and future world champion.
He doesn't have it at the moment, and he needs as you say a good car under him. I don't think at present anybody would put him in the all time top ten of greats.

Lets hope next year we can see him push Schumacher, which Rubens is incapable of, and even if he was not allowed to do, just like Eddie Irvine before him. He certainly knows how to pick his team mates.

Clive

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One example being in his Formula 3000 days I think, was he drove virtually for a whole race without brakes and had to slow the car down by gear changes and lifting, and yes, he also won that race, stuff of legend I think.

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Sorry Clive, but Senna never drove in F3000. He went directly from F3 to F1. MS never drove in F3000 either. In fact, no one who has been successfull in F3000 has made much of a success in F1!

Just wearing my besserwisser hat today...

JohanR