Vegetarians

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Originally posted by Steve Toy:

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Originally posted by Mark Double-Barrel:

Never thought I'd find myself saying this, but I actually agree with _Stephen Toy's _ post

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Who the fuck is "Stephen Toy?"

Regards,

Steve.

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I AM Steven Toy

regards

Bria

Speaking from a place of some authority Vegetarians are very much like X-Smokers.

A pain in the arse.

Curiously without taking a stance I seem to be semi vegetarian, mostly in the week we rarely eat meat, although I do like Sunday lunch (i.e. meat).

The ones that seriously piss me off are the vegies that eat fish, or even fish and chicken.

Basically if you won't eat anything that had a face then you are vegi, otherwise you arn't, get over it.

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Originally posted by Steve Toy:

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Originally posted by Mark Double-Barrel:

Never thought I'd find myself saying this, but I actually agree with _Stephen Toy's _ post

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Who the fuck is "Stephen Toy?"

Regards,

Steve.

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Mark, Stephen has shortened his user name. He's now Steph Toy.

-- Ian

I wonder how many "veggies" "vegans" Muslims" "Jews" etc would stand by their morals if faced with starvation? think third world and complete lack of food let alone choice!

(at this point lays down Bob Geldoff hat)

I can't understand this requirement to shorten our names,
ol.

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I wonder how many "veggies" "vegans" Muslims" "Jews" etc would stand by their morals if faced with starvation? think third world and complete lack of food let alone choice!

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I understand that the meat I don't eat isn't magically whisked away to a starving child in Ethiopia, but I do think about hunger in the Third World and it's one of several reasons why I'm a vegetarian.

If more people were vegetarian, more resources would be available to feed the planet's populace, instead of what we currently do -- disproportionately allocating much agricultural output, not to mention natural resources, into grain production that's inefficiently cycled through livestock.

Meat-eaters soak up the world's water

And I'm completely baffled by your comment about Muslims and Jews. Would you suggest, for example, that Christians eat babies if faced with starvation?

Joe

Shurely 'Steve N Toy'.

jo

I'm still completely baffled as to why, when going for dinner at the home of vegitarian friends, it's considered some terrible slight if they don't serve you meat. It just seems a really bizarre thing to be concerned about and whenever vegitarian friends have cooked for me it's never even entered my head that I should expect to get a meat alternative.

Matthew

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If more people were vegetarian, more resources would be available to feed the planet's populace, instead of what we currently do -- disproportionately allocating much agricultural output, not to mention natural resources, into grain production that's inefficiently cycled through livestock.

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I am aware of the 1/10th rule:

One field feeds enough cattle to feed 10 people.

The same field could grow crops to feed 100 people.

However, people starve not through insufficient production of food across the globe but because of poor distribution.

By giving up meat in the developed world more of our land could be set aside for the growing of crops. However, the harvested grain would be unlikely to reach those who are starving in the developing world.

For that to happen we'd need better global transport links.

Regards,

Steve.

I used to live in Slovakia where there weren't any lawns.

The available land around each house was used purely to grow food and keep some livestock. As a result food and drink was always plentiful even if my hosts' wages were rather dire.

I remember visiting my Slovak g/f's house and her mother asking if I needed any eggs. She gave me a bag full of them, laid by their 50 or so free-range chickens that wandered the streets of her village. I got back to my flat and counted 17 of the fuckers in the bag.

I even obtained a couple of litres of slivovice (plum brandy) @ 55% ABV from a neighbour for just £2 by turning up with a couple of empty bottles of Pepsi.

My grandmother's house also has plenty of land behind it that was always full of things growing in it for eating when my grandfather was alive. She's 99 now, and my grandfather died back in '72. These days much of it is a lawn although my mother did plant some runner beans up there this year.

We did explain to an ex g/f of mine from Slovakia (10 years ago) who came over here, that the reason why we don't use our gardens for food production much in the UK these days is that it isn't as economic as a full time job and buying what you need from the local supermarket.

Slovaks work in their poorly-paid jobs from 6 am till 2pm leaving them the rest of the day to tend to their kitchen gardens that usually produce a surplus to their requirements. Even those who dwell in flats usually have allotments out of town.

As a result those who live in the one big city, Bratislava (around 10% of the total population) are worse off than the rest of the population of the country.

I should also point out that Slovakia along with the Czech Republic have the highest consumption of fossil fules outside of the US, and probably the highest emissions of sulphir dioxide/CO2 into the atmosphere to boot.

You certainly wouldn't want to go swimming in the River Vah...

"Green" they are not...

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Mon 01 November 2004 at 6:11.]

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
After 20 years of being a strict vege she's just started eating fish (health reasons) and that has been really handy.


Tom
http://www.activesbl.plus.com/RecordIndex.htm

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Tom

What health reasons?

regards

Stephen

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
She felt she was mising some protein/mineral mix. Since she has started eating fish she has certainly felt more healthy.

Tom
http://www.activesbl.plus.com/RecordIndex.htm

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I assume she knows that she doesn't need to eat fish to get the right balances of vitamins/minerals/fats and so on? There's nothing a good vegetarian/vegan diet can't provide.

There's a lot of info on the web & in shops about what contains what. However, if she wants to eat animals...

Just interested; was this her idea or a doctors?

Regards

Stephen

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Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:

I assume she knows that she doesn't need to eat fish to get the right balances of vitamins/minerals/fats and so on? There's nothing a good vegetarian/vegan diet can't provide.

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In theory it may be possible but I tried my best for eight years, and failed. Last year I started eating fish again, and very soon felt a lot less depressed.

As with all anecdotal evidence, I cannot prove a causal link but the difference is so great that I am not prepared to risk my life to find out if I am mistaken.

Finding salmon, mackeral, tuna etc. that is unlikely to contain dangerous levels of toxins is a problem but for now I'm happy to swap anguish for toxins. I expect I'll become a meat eater, eventually...

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Originally posted by JeremyD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:

In theory it may be possible but I tried my best for eight years, and failed. Last year I started eating fish again, and very soon felt a lot less depressed.

I expect I'll become a meat eater, eventually...

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That's really sad. A lot of meat-eaters turn to vegetarian/vegan diets precisely for health reasons. Of course, most people whether carnivore or not have bad diets. The hard part is that we know bugger all about what we need to eat to stay healthy. Throw in lifestyle, habits and environment and it becomes a total mess.

However, there are some nutritional and environmental certainties. Even if I didn't eat animals for personal reasons, I certainly wouldn't eat anything meat-wise bought in a shop or restaurant.

You sure it wasn't the NAIM and not the fish that did it?



Stephen

[This message was edited by Stephen Bennett on Mon 01 November 2004 at 16:58.]

I was at the Vegan society 60th anniversary awards last night. Apart from all the bright and pretty young things I met a lovely woman who had been vegan since 1948. She's in her '70s now, fit, healthy, intellegent, perfect hearing(!). She travels the world, drives, and is a keen walker. The society's founder is also a regular fell walker and well into his '90s.

No-one needs to eat animals if they don't want to.

Regards

Stephen

"True, but wasn't the point that if you are entertaining veges you eat vege, if veges entertain you you eat vege. The equation doesn't flow both ways."

This was the original point of the thread but it's apparently moved onto "vegetarian diet/beliefs vs omnivore/carnivores - discuss".
This is personally fine by me as I climbed off my moral high horse a few postings back after Joe made some very erudite comments.

Of course, if it still leads to lively debate then so be it! There is certainly much to say on the subject but I guess there's no right or wrong: if people choose not to eat meat on moral grounds then nobody can argue against them,(unless they wear leather). A committed Christian might argue that his God "gave" us these animals for food so there is no moral dilemma whereas a Hindu may argue the exact opposite. Nutritionally,I believe it's proven that a vegan diet can be rich in all the things our bodies and constitutions need to function properly and can be more healthy than an omniverous diet.
My mother's a vegetarian but in her case, she doesn't like the taste of meat:there's no argument there to be had,(not that I'd ever say anything to my dear old mum, God bless her).

The elegant answer to the original problem when visiting your vegetarian friends is to eat them. That way, both ideologies remain uncompromised.

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"The elegant answer to the original problem is simple. When visiting your vegetarian friends, eat them. That way, both parties' ideologies remain uncompromised."

Well, as the saying goes,"you are what you eat" and if this is the case, I probably wouldn't tuck into my friends as I'm not that partial to the taste of lentils and Artichoke Fricasse', which is what they seem to exist on....

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
True, but wasn't the point that if you are entertaining veges you eat vege, if veges entertain you you eat vege. The equation doesn't flow both ways.

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True Tom. And it never will. It's not science.



Stephen

Julian,

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i always wonder: if the entire world did go 'veggie' then what would happen to all those cows, pigs, chickens and sheep?

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Ummmm, what's the likelihood that everyone on the planet -- all 6,400,000,000 of us -- would go veggie overnight?

Joe

We have farmed cows, sheep & pigs to supply the demand. The current numbers are not the natural state.
I guess they would be like any other animal:
Horses, dogs, cats, pandas, zebras, ant-eaters and the three toed shrew. Not forgetting the small eared red spotted field mouse.

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Not forgetting the small eared red spotted field mouse.

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Yes, quite delicious.

-- Ian

Odd argument Tom. That any species is of no worth unless we eat them. No problem with dairy eh? So we still need cows, goats & hens. Unless we all go vegan of course, in which case we can use them as waste disposal systems and collect methane and fertiliser. If the food demand changed that drastically the engineering of the whole system would need to be re-thought, so I hardly think that animals would not feature somewhere for the ecological balance of the planet.
Just had a thought: If vegans don't eat any animal influenced product at all - does that include any vegatables raised using farm manure as fertiliser? If so, is it all chemical fertiliser? Not good!!

It is the peak of rudeness, even amongst the slack-jawed, drooling, SUV driving, food wasting, assault weapon shooting, uneducated, un-traveled, isolationist Midwestern rubes, to refuse to eat what has been offered by your hosts unless it is a) poison b) against your religion and one bite will send you straight to hell.
It is equally as rude to serve your guests that which they can't due to health or creed.
Sounds like you need to come to terms with your friends. You’ve been flexible and accommodating, they have not.
On the other hand, you could just agree that when you’re with your veggie friends you simply eat veggie. I find the veggie dishes to be most creative and I’m constantly amazed at the lengths hard core veggies go to in order to make their dishes interesting. I’m usually not satisfied after a veggie meal though, not enough amino acids for complete nutrition IMhO but I won’t debate that point as there are many veggies that are doing fine (though they have to work MUCH harder than I do to get adequate protein and other nutrients that aren’t in high concentration in vegetation).
Your friends should allow you to eat meat around them if you desire. It seems very one-sided to me.
In my limited sample of acquaintances, I’ve known more former vegetarians than former omnivores. Most of them started as teenage girls as part of their own self-discovery and then later “convert” back to omnivore. Fewer I’ve known converted as adults to veggie for health or “religious” reasons (read rabid animal rights activists). Interesting that the health converts didn’t see as much improvement in their conditions after converting. And nearly all of my sample have not stayed veggie. Again, my experience only, YMMV.
It used to be that politics and religion were the two topics that guaranteed friction in polite society. Now add nutrition. Interesting, in a world that is waste-deep in food and choices how this is such a contentious issue. And, with all this food, how little of the excess is provided to those in real need.
Interesting argument that we’d need a radically different distribution system to get food to those in need. We don’t seem to have a problem shipping petroleum products to those with cash…
I know in the US the politics that come along with nutrition are interesting. You have the government telling us that we need to eat far more breads and starches than are generally recognized as healthy, and it’s all due to the agriculture lobby. We have so many obese kids stuffing McDonalds fries down their gullet, fried potatoes were, in one study I read, the most widely consumed “vegetable” by children and teenagers.
How sad.
David