Elitism

Some can't get a "great" system (for whatever system), and for them to complain of an elitist attitude is unrealistic. It's like the Politically Correct saying that all people are created equal. They aren't! In the same way, some system are better than others.

People have worked hard to build up their systems to a certain level, and they like to parade their gizmos. This isn't elitism; it's pride (and maybe a competitive spirit).

For those of us that have satisfying setups, we are in a position to choose whether we could be satisfied with something else. In my case I have a CDX/82/Super/250, but I could have been happy with a CDX/102/NAPSC/Hi/140. Anything less, and I would want to upgrade. However, at work I have a CambridgeCD6/32.5/SNAPS2/110, and I'm quite satisfied with that in my office.

In the end, it's all about human nature. We're naturally competitive beasts. We like to contrast and compare things, and categorize like mad. It's not going to stop any time soon, regardless of how much the politically correct try to handcuff our attitudes. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

By my reckoning, most of the people on this forum tend to save their money for one good component per 6-12 months.

Of course there will be those who have just heard of Naim a week or so ago and bought the full monty, that kind of thing happens... I don't mind -its their money keeping Naim in business in time for me to buy.

Conversely I've been a Naim fan while being a hard working student for 10 years (without financial support from my parents). Only now am I in a position to start buying some serious Naim kit (which I have with the 72/Hi-Cap).

Wal, my advice is to find new work - even if it requires some additional training. This might mean giving up some freetime.

I'm doing the same, NEC don't pay me enough for what I do (developer of WAP protocols at the WAP Forum and the IETF) and I know plenty of others that would. In fact I'm waiting for the green light on a job that'll offer me a 40% rise. Being re-located up North will be an advantage for me as well.

So Wal, GO FOR IT!!!

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

--Eric

i find "political correctness" phrase a bit of a contradiction in terms. the sense in which i have seem it used is that political incorrectness might actually get you votes!!!

just a view... probably in the wrong thread, and also probably completely misunderstood your post ... etc etc

enjoy...

ken

quote:

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I prefer the elitism of all old-style shoebox systems, which offer phenomenal value if purchased smartly.

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I can agree with that quite readily. My office system certainly falls into this category, with a lowly Cambridge CD6 and $50 pawnshop tuner as the sources. They're driven through a 32.5/SNAPS2/110 and some ex-dem Royd Merlins. Even at home with all "wide boxes", only the speakers, Headline and various cables were purchased new.

Everyone will have a different way to measure their success. Some may base it upon now much money they spend, while others will measure it by how little the spend. To each it own, forever!

Ken Chakahwata said:

quote:

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equality quickly becomes a rather empty concept

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This realization should be embraced and applauded. When people begin identifying with one group, then they naturally begin to oppose others. This is why we have wars, etc.

If, instead, everyone recognizes that they are mere individuals in a very disparate sea of individuals, then they would be more likely to respect those differences, rather than punishing people for them. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

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Is it me or what?

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Wal, it probably is you. I remember when I first came across the old forum, I believed that the more expensive your system was the bigger was your ego.

However, when I looked at the advice that the owners (proud owners, and why not) of expensive systems gave, sharing their own experience of the up-grade trail, then the vast majority are not in the least snobbish or elitist. Some are of course, but yuo find that in any community.

cheers

Nigel

That's Wynette

What I find slightly depressing about the forum is that I used to be very happy with my system until a few months ago when I joined in. Anyone I knew wasnt really bothered by hi fi, so I felt like I was near the top of the tree.
Shortly after joining the forum, curiosity got the better and I visited a dealer and soon ended up with a CDX. What worries me is when people start jusifying their upgrades by saying things like "My 82/2xhicap sounded closed in harsh/muffled etc until I added a supercap" and "My 52/2x135 sound lacked control until I got 3x500". If systems that are already out of my reach are receiving critisism, how am I to avoid finding fault with my own, much as I try to avoid doing this.
I now realise that I'm never going to get anywhere near a top flight system, but in the overall scheme of things I think that although I may feel a little inadequate in this forum, compared to the vast majority of people I've already got a ridiculously expensive system at approx £7500, which will outperform probably 99% of the population's hi fi.
I would guess a lot of people would be happier with their systems if this forum did'nt exist.

Ade
(Saving for the next upgrade,slowly!)

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on MONDAY 08 January 2001 at 12:34.]

yes - much better, although

"Tammy Wynette is Dead"

is better still ... and mine's a 99 ... all aboard !!!

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

...but I have to say I do not see any evidence of this on the forum.

I think that sometimes the advice offered doesn't always take into account the means of the person being offered the advice, but this is, I'm sure, purely because it comes from the personal perspective person offering the advice. I think we can all be guilty of the glib 'What you should do is...' statement without always putting ourselves into the shoes (wallet?) of the recipient.

This is how I always view it, and don't feel there is a need to attach a suggestion of elitism to it.

I'm also a keen proponent of the Eric Barry approach, taking great delight in parading the results of my many bargain-hunts, be they CD's or Hi-Fi tweaks / mods.

At the end of the day I'm content with my Nait3 (even though I'm about to perform a significant upgrade as a result of 5 years hard saving), would like a better job with more pay, but know that there is only one person that will stop me from achieving this - ME

Andy.

Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com

I'm afraid I haven't come across anyone here being elitist - in fact the thing that impresses me most is the down to earth nature of the people here - especially those with big systems.

Forum members have been extremely helpful to me over the past few months with help ranging from offering to lend me a DVD player to try at home before I invested in home cinema, loan of an SME strobe disc to check the speed of my turntable and offering to come over when I claimed my system lacked bass to see if all seemed well and even bringing a Hicap for me to try. My system probably falls just short of your £10K figure but that has made no difference.

I can only speak as I have found - but those I have come across so far deserve the very highest praise. As an ex-fellow Merseysider I have to say they're not bad for a bunch of Southern jessies!! ;-)

Jonathan

What does this tell you about perception? To me it says the best you've heard sounds pretty good until you hear something better. Even 6x500 into DBL won't sound live, and frankly live isn't always that hot anyway (speaking as a recent attendee of the symphony at Avery Fischer Hall, and frequent rock club attendee). So, upgrade, get used to it, and then do it again, but remember satisfaction is a state of mind.

Mike,

You need an identity politics snappy. Forum goers, please cue Fugazi's Facet Squared in Mike's honor.

Jonathon,

Come down off the top of the mountain please, it's cold and lonely up there. And might I suggest that it would be easier and more intellectually legitimate to slag Miles Davis than to dismiss an entire genre of music (that is c&w). For you, I would like to suggest Pierre Bourdieu's Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste.

--Eri

[This message was edited by Eric Barry on MONDAY 08 January 2001 at 14:16.]

Where to start - Bill Monroe, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, The Eagles, Willie Nelson, Steve Earle, Emmylou Harris, REM - they're all total bollocks of course, the world would be a much better place without them. Rolling Stones, Gram Parsons, Jackson Browne - music doesn't get much worse than that - kill the bastards.

Tammy is Queen - Mu Mu

John

Somthing along the lines of Miles not holding a candle to Dolly when it came to songwriting.

Bring on your hardware - if you can find us country outlaws

John

do bear in mind that, in a lot of cases, less expensive hifi systems can be "better", in the sense that they don't attempt to solve the difficult problems of music reproduction. more expensive systems sometimes incorporate very complex designs to solve these problems and remove some compromises -- and sometimes this makes the system rather "unforgiving" (i hate this term -- i am using it here to mean that the system becomes very very sensitive to its installation and its environment, mains, supports, etc etc). so its not all beer and skeetles with high end hifi.

however, with careful design, and naim do better than most, high end hifi can be highly rewarding musically. mostly in terms of revealing layers of music that you may not have been aware of in your records. there is still plenty of music in a nait 5 based system. one of the reasons for upgrades is merely to feed the habit -- we want more and more layers of music revealed to us (harmonies, subtle rhythms - the "i never heard that before" effect).

i have very, very pleasant memories of my 32/hicap/250/isobarik (then kan I) system.

enjoy...

ken

Jonathon,

If you are denigrating a musical form due to your limited experience of its commodified variants, then perhaps you should reconsider. After all, that would be akin to dimissing hi-fi after hearing a sony/bose system for 5 minutes. If on the other hand you have heard "the good stuff" in the C&W/hillbilly/mountain/rockabilly/bluegrass continuum, perhaps you could explain why it is so bad? I still think taking the Miles=easy listening crossover crap is a much easier line to defend (though I love it myself).

--Eric

Now there's plenty on unimaginative, banal music of other genres - but you don't seem quite so keen to write those off. How About 'all jazz music is mind numbinging dull - based on the music of Kenny G'

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I'm talking about the strictly LHS hard core "stand by your man" type C&W.

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Try Randy Travis or Dwight Yoakam - two quite different types of 'stand by your man' type C&W with lots of 'folksy' type lyrics. You seem to entirley miss the humour in some of these lyrics.
Kenny Rogers' Coward Of the Country being a prime example - and I bet you HATE that

Give yer ears a treat pardner

John

∂

It's quite possible that country is just not for you, but here are a few suggestions anyway.

Dwight Yoakam - Plays in a 'Honky Tonk' style with loads of twang. Any of his albums are worth a listen, but the first 2 or 3 are probably the best.

Alison Krauss - Traditional Bluegrass Country. Fancy Picking with heavenly harmonies. Try 'Now That I've Found You: A Collection'.

Randy Travis - the most tradional Country of the three and closest to the 'stand by your man' style of George Jones and Tammy. So probably the one you're least likely to like, but, of this style, you don't get much better than this. The lyrics are way over the top - but in a quite magnificent way. The one to try is 'Storms Of Life'

Even if they're not to your taste, you should at least be able to appreciate what other people might see in the genre