Binge Drinkers, only a UK problem?

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The whole problem of binge drinking could be stopped by refusing to allow anyone under 25 to purchase anything other than real ale.

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Or wack up the tax ....alcohol now is probably cheaper (in real terms) than it has been for decades. Binge-drinking louts are just the tip of a very large iceberg. Alcohol abuse pervades all areas of society, and is responsible for a lot of social problems, apart from being a massive burden on the health service and a major cause of of absenteeism from work

Alcohol is a poisonous drug and should be treated as such

Laurie S

I agree with Paul re the Real Ale only rule

I have been to many beer festivals over the last quarter century where everyone is binge drinking and have never experienced any trouble at or after the event in spite of the amount of alcohol consumed.

Though one year the Great Western Beer Festival was cancelled because of police concerns about 'lager louts' hmmmm.

I've seen loads of Germans, Dutch, Slovaks and Scandanavians out of their heads in France(not so many Germans there), Spain, Austria(skiing season). Never seen much trouble as a result - until the Brits got involved "2 world wars and the world cup" and tht sort of shit.

cheers

Nigel

Paul

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It wouldn't work Laurie,

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I know....I was adopting a Parryesque, (slightly tongue in cheek) stance just to play devil`s advocate. This whole debate which really extends to the wider issue of drug abuse,and more, is very complex. Ultimately, if folk choose to poison themselves, they should be perfectly free to do so, the real problem arises when bad behaviour makes life a misery for others.

Unfortunately there are very few (none?) "lifestyle" choices we make that do not impinge on the welfare of others

So I would guess that binge drinking itself (although a significant factor in the poor behaviour of the drinkers) should not in itself be "targetted" as the "crime" but the (often ensuing) bad behaviour itelf. It is perfectly possible to drink excessively and simply stagger home and collapse in a heap.....who`s to say that this should be forbidden?

Using drunkeness as some kind of excuse is unacceptable, because, presumably the drinker was sober enough at the outset of a drinking session to be fully aware of the likely effects that drinking was going to have,( or ought to have been) and thus able to make a conscious decision whether to proceed or not

I think a much fairer and more logical approach would be for the police to take a much tougher line with loutish behaviour per se.


The (i)llogic used goes as follows

1. Some people drink more than is good for them

2. Of these, some then go on to behave badly, (as do others whose bad behaviour has nothing to do with drink)

3. Solution...be soft on bad behaviour, but try to clamp down on drinking venues in town centres, conveniently ignoring all the other myriad sources of alcohol, or causes of bad behaviour

I was recently on a train quite late at night, a rough looking individual, clearly the worse for drink, boarded, sat down and lit up a cigarette. I notified the guard, who suggested it best if I just ignored this.....he was clearly concerned about his own safety, but what is the point of having signs posted threatening legal action against those in breach of the smoking ban. I made a formal complaint at the station of my destination, and never heard a thing more about it


The sooner that the authorities have the courage to tackle the true CAUSE of problems such as these, then we might start to see real improvements


Laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Mon 07 June 2004 at 14:38.]

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Mon 07 June 2004 at 14:38.]

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Mon 07 June 2004 at 14:39.]

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Is this a one off or is it typically of most UK towns??

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As is the case with this type of program you can make a program to support whatever argument you want by showing a few badly behaving individuals being rowdy things are made to look much worse than they are.

I worked the last 2 years in Nottingham and frequently went out at night, prior to that I worked 5 years in Leeds, and I also frequently go out in Manchester. Of course there's a bit of trouble now and again and occationally you might see a fight, but these places are perfectly safe and any such trouble is easy to avoid. It's inevitable that where you have 50 -100K people in a city centre drinking/clubbing etc on a Saturday night there's going to be the odd injury and bit of trouble.

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Originally posted by seagull:
Though one year the Great Western Beer Festival was cancelled because of police concerns about 'lager louts' hmmmm.

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I lived and worked in Bristol in the early 80s, and went to the GWB Festival a couple of times. I saw plenty of trouble on each occasion: live bands being assaulted, punchups in the bogs, pushing/falling down stairs, and plenty of generally gross behaviour. Much of the bother was caused by the women, whatever that may mean.

It didn't stop me going, but I had to be even more careful than was usual in what is already a surprisingly aggressive city.

Davie

Paul

I loved Bristol. I was there from 1980 to 1985, give or take. But I was surprised by the level of aggro - and I'm from Glasgow!

Anyway, I'm sure most of the beer festival trouble was caused by the dreaded West Country cider drinkers.

Davie

I was in Bristol for just over a year in the early eighties. I only went to the GWB once but didn't see any trouble, I think I went Thursday night but my memory of that evening isn;t great.

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Much of the bother was caused by the women, whatever that may mean.

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That came across quite clearly in the program. Obviously the opportunity to highlight this was not lost on the cameras which may have overemphasised it, but there was a clear impression created of girls out to have fun getting the most out of provoking the males into demonstrating their masculinity in stupid acts and violence.
This degenerated as the night wore on into females collapsing on the street completely done in by horrific mixtures of booze.

Moments of sad realism were brought in, such as a former bar manageress explaining some of the ways in which they encouraged people to drink more. Always prompt the person to have a LARGE one rather than a small one. Serve a jug of cocktail mix cheaper, with straws so they don't really realise the volume involved and how fast it is being consumed.

There still seems to be this frantic rush to drink quickly which was symptomatic of the old license laws. The problem seems to be that extending opening hours has not taken this built in reaction away but has just allowed an extended period of frantic speed drinking.

Geoff

Listening every day planning to "not fade away"

It is interesting to note that any publican or off-licence holder (or employee) breaks the law if they knowingly sell alcohol to an individual who is "under the influence" or "under-age".

The responsibility, however, must be shared between the provider and the end-user.

It's the attitude that's the problem, not necessarily the product.

L-T-D (enjoying a nice Laphroiag 15yo as I type this !!!()

having moved around a bit and been out a lot in Liverpool, Newcastle, Aberystwyth, Brussels and Toronto most of the really loutish behaviour has been by the Brits. However I have only been involved in one bit of trouble, but have of course witnessed lots of loutish (annoying, but not dangerous behaviour).

In Brussels (where there are no closing times) everyone just goes home when they feel like it, so there is never a queue for taxi's or at the local munchie house. So this leads to less drunk people in one place not under supervision of bouncers.

This can't be the only reason though, since in Toronto all the clubs shut at 2ish as well and there is not the same level of drunkeness etc as UK.

On the whole I think it is the British culture. Other countries seem to go out and get drunk (maybe not to the same extent), but those that do just go home and don't start any trouble. It seems that in some segments of society it is seen as cool to go out get drunk and then start a fight.

Binge Drinking does seem to be a British problem.

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Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Brits got involved "2 world wars and the world cup" and tht sort of shit.

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Surely the inclusion of the "world cup" means that it must have been English hooligans and not British ones?

Not that I've any first hand experience as I tend not to holiday anywhere such louts (English, British or otherwise) would be interested in.

I've been to a few and never seen any trouble, however I've always tended to go during the afternoon and left (mildy pissed) in the early evening. If there was any trouble I'd have expected it to be later on, however from the ones I was at it would have been hard to imagine any bother starting as they tended to be very relaxed and friendly affairs.

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Originally posted by Paul D:
Well that makes two us who have never seen any bother at a beer festival.

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Three now I've only been to a few, but everyone's always laid back and nice to talk to, and the real ale range is usually phenomenal. I like the CAMRA way of giving you tokens on the way in for your entrance fee as well - very cool.

Lager (especially Stella - the one with the arsehole additive in it) is vile, putrid p***. Heineken in particular is piped from the waste pipe in the gents, fed through a chiller and a Sodastream, and put back out to the pumps. Well, it tastes like it has anyway!

When Britian ditches the banal licensing times allowed to pubs, or bans cigarettes and alcohol, which do far more damage than E, H and cannabis, we might see an improvement. Until then, let's face it, the government will be only too gleeful to keep raking in the taxes made on lager.

__________________________
Don't wanna be cremated or buried in a grave
Just dump me in a plastic bag and leave me on the pavement
A tribute to your modern world, your great society
I'm just another victim of your highrise fantasy!

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:
I loved Bristol. I was there from 1980 to 1985, give or take. But I was surprised by the level of aggro - and I'm from Glasgow!

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It's worse now! I went to see Arthur Lee/Love there in Feb, and inadvertently made the mistake of ordering a Stella (well, the barman stuffed the order up). I've not drunk this muck in years, but it really brought home the reason I don't drink it more often. I got some verbal off a guy in the city centre and went right off on one at him; I've never hit anyone, and this wasn't an exception, but was rather nasty to him.

I've made a vow not to drink that stuff any more - real ale and wine is OK but Stella (and most lager)? Nah - do me a favour. Red Stripe is drinkable though...

__________________________
Don't wanna be cremated or buried in a grave
Just dump me in a plastic bag and leave me on the pavement
A tribute to your modern world, your great society
I'm just another victim of your highrise fantasy!

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Originally posted by domfjbrown:
I've made a vow not to drink that stuff any more - real ale and wine is OK but Stella (and most lager)? Nah - do me a favour. Red Stripe is drinkable though...

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I lived for a year in Munich and there lager type beers are superb - Edelsdorf being up there with my all-time favourite beers. I don't drink the piss this country serves up as lager, although there are a few imported bottled lagers I like.

The British just cannot deal with booze.

I am British and I regard my fellow countrymen as embarrising when they get some drink down their necks.
As other posters have suggested, other nationalities seam able to cope with having a good session - it just seams to be the Brits who want a fight as soon as they've had a drink.

I am not some puritanical teetotaller - i love a good drink - I just seam to be lucky, i just fall asleep - i don't suddenly become some aggressive areshole.
I have friends who I would rather not be around if they've had a drink.

I did'nt see the Panorama program referred to but you only have to visit any City Centre on a Friday or Saturday night just to get a feel for the atmosphere of booze fuelled aggro. Why are there bouncers on pub doors ?

I dont think its anything to do with licensing laws, taxes, too much disposable income etc.

I do agree that banning all alcohol sales other than Real Ale would certainly sort the problem out. I can still remember the the last glass of warm flat piss that I drank 10 years ago. This would cure anyone.

As a side issue - Dutch lager is the best in the world, Heineken and Oranjeboom , closely followed by Indian lager - Kingsfisher. I'm not talking about about the gassy rubbish we brew here under licence - I mean the real mcoy as served in their native countries.

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Originally posted by Steve G:

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Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Brits got involved "2 world wars and the world cup" and tht sort of shit.

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Surely the inclusion of the "world cup" means that it must have been English hooligans and not British ones?

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Sorry, I forgot that the Scots have never won anything.

cheers

Nigel

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Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Sorry, I forgot that the Scots have never won anything.

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Even if it were true, I'm not sure why you'd feel that's was of any relevance.

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Originally posted by adamk:
As a side issue - Dutch lager is the best in the world, Heineken and Oranjeboom , closely followed by Indian lager - Kingsfisher. I'm not talking about about the gassy rubbish we brew here under licence - I mean the real mcoy as served in their native countries.

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You've obviously spend rather a sheltered existence otherwise you'd know that it's Germany and the Czech republic that make the best lager type beers!

I lived in Holland for a while and wasn't very impressed by their beer. I also lived for a while in Belgium and wasn't impressed by their beer much either.

Dutch lager is ok especially Grolsch, Brand, Dommelsch. Heineken,Oranjeboom,Bavaria,Amstel gives you a tremendous headache due to the additives in it, plus they taste like toiletwater.
The best lagers are the chzech lagers like Urquell, Pramovar etc. For real beers the belgians are doing well with the likes of Corsendonck, Leffe ,Verboden vrucht, Kriek, Palm,Het elfde gebod, which differ in percentage of alcohol.

Rob.

Wot you lot complainin about? Eh? Inlish beer is brilliant - like stella n carlsburg – nofink rong wiv it. Gets me pissed anyway. I (burp) I (burp) dunno wot you lot on about. Wouldn’t touch that real ale stuff – looks like shit – stick wiv me good Inglish stella me. Ya fuckers. Bunch of ponces.
Ing – er –lund. Ing – er –lund. Ing – er –lund.

Oh!

Here in Sweden we have been made to believe that binge drinking is something that only us uneducated beer and vodka drinking Swedes are doing. Look at the sofisticated French who just sips wine (and smoke all the time) and never gets drunk, we have been told. Or those nice Britts who goes down to the pub to socialize after work and have a beer or two and then goes home completely sober.

And because we can't 'handle alcohol in a natural way' (as we have been told) we must thus endure the worlds highest alcohol taxes.

A relief getting to know that we aren't alone!

JohanR

Johan, I think Sweden has a long way to go to match Britain for drinking combined with violence.

Last year I felt perfectly safe walking alone through Stockholm late on a Saturday night (except the part where I had to climb some unlit steps where muggers or vampires might have been hiding). There was no sign that there could be any kind of trouble.

I wouldn't dream of going anywhere on foot at night in a British city.