One for Brian O'Reilly and all of the Petrol Heads out there

Drive it 'normally' from the outset.

30/40mph (!) is more likely to do harm than good.

Paul

So what car is it then Oldie?

It's a long time since I had to run-in a car. I've ran a couple out recently though!

I didn't think running-in was necessary these days, other than not thrashing them really hard but I would simply stick with the manufacturers recommendations.

Steve B

Hallo Oldie,

Running-in procedures are pretty much the same now as they ever were, although with modern designs, latest oils and material treatments, current engines are less sensitive to this process.

Best advice is to follow the guidance in the handbook specific to that model.

Generally that will mean about a thousand miles of part-throttle driving, avoiding exceeding 4500rpm.

Try to vary engine speed on motorways for example, rather than sticking at the same point.

Ideally, you would make fewer, but longer journeys as most engine wear occurs during cold starts, before the lubricating oil can reach the moving parts, but this is not essential.

As you approach 1000miles, the odd second or two of full-throttle is thought to help bed-in the piston rings, and gradually increasing engine revs wouldn’t hurt.

DON’T allow the engine to sit idling, particularly when hot, for longer than necessary (although this also applies to a fully-run-in engine).

Allow the engine to cool down during the last mile of your journey.

Basically, you shouldn’t have to think too much about running-in, avoid high rpm, avoid low rpm, avoid full-throttle.

With modern lubricants, the first oil change may not be recommended until 10,000-15,000 miles. Old habits die hard, and if it were my car I would probably pay for an oil change at 1000-15000 miles, and again at 6000miles to be honest.

Then there are those who swear it’s best to use full-throttle as soon as possible, but they tend to be on the lunatic fringe…….

Regards,

Brian

Brian OReilly

Brian,
Thanks for the confirmation,its nice to know that at least some of the "old ways" are still the right ways [ not many of them left now though]

Steve,
I eventually became fed up with Trevor Newall complaning about "Old Buggers in Volvo's" So after driving my mates Clio round Scotland this last few weeks,50 mpg,fairly comfortable and roomy [there is only the two of us] quick for a 1.2 Lt.engine, and stuck to the road like the nasty brown stuff does to a blanket, I decided the "old tank" just had to go.I fancied the Clio 182 sport, but with the Insurance for me,with full no claims and years of experience ,at £680[I've bought cars for less than that in the past]I settled for the 1.6 16 valve sport [with a few extra goodys] or what ever its French equivalent is, and so far I'm pleased with it.Soooooooooo it's now up to all of you to tell me what a total plonker I am for buying a Clio,and that I should have bought a ,

Please make your suggestions here:-
oldie.

[This message was edited by oldie on Thu 19 August 2004 at 15:50.]

I think that most modern cars make no mention of 'running in' in their owners manuals. And with the long warranties that are common nowadays I think you can assume the manufacturers know what they're doing.

Anyway whatever the manual says, revving the engine hard is much better for it than labouring it at low revs and high load.

I suggest you drive it normally but avoid race tracks for the first 500 miles. The brakes probably require more bedding in than the engine or gearbox.

There's nothing wrong with Clios.

Paul

I'd be surprised if there was no running-in guidance Paul. I change my car every four months and the handover guy always gives me the running-in speech.

Improvements in machining technology and materials mean that running-in is probably less important than it used to be, but still necessary. If you were keeping a car long term you'd be mad not to run it in properly. Perhaps it's "belt-and-braces" but it could be the difference between a $$$$ bill later on.

Brakes seem to bed in pretty quickly without any special treatment.

Thanks Paul,
Basically thats what I usually do,but no over high revs and no stressfull low revs either. Many years working for Rolls Royce Research& Dev.Aero Div. have left their mark on me and I find it difficult to forget the old maxims, but I just wondered what others did
The only complaint regarding the clios so far is in my "old" opinion there is far to much plastic in them but still I suppose the good side is , as long as its been UV TREATED plastic does not suffer from the Steel lace effect.
oldie.

Paul Ranson is talking absolute bollocks. Stick to Brian's advice, he's totally correct.

Most makers leave the 1st service (usually just an oil change) out of the service schedule now. I cynically assume this is just to bring down the apparent cost of servicing during ownership. So my cars always get at least an oil and filter change at 1000 miles.

Tony

Follow what the owner's manual says. Including what they recommend for the first oil change- whether at 1k or 7.5k. Some manufacturers use a (for lack of a better term) "gritty" oil out of the factory to help hone the fit of pieces and parts. Drain it too soon and you're not helping matters. This was the case with at least Honda and Toyota cars in the US within the past 5 or so years.

OK. Which manufacturers nowadays make a running in recommendation? I know MG/Rover have done within the last few years, but Peugeot and Fiat don't.

What's so difficult about following the manufacturers recommendations? They are the one source that know exactly what they're talking about, and they are the people who have to meet the warranty costs when the bores glaze and your oil consumption rises.

'count.d' obviously has no idea what he's talking about, the one thing that is certain is that different engines from different eras have different requirements. And modern engines that don't need an oil change for a year are not the same as pushrod Fords that need to be run on 20w50 at less than
3000rpm for 1000 miles with an oil change at 500.

Paul

Did the advice come from the salesman or from the handbook?

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
Follow what the owner's manual says. Including what they recommend for the first oil change- whether at 1k or 7.5k. Some manufacturers use a (for lack of a better term) "gritty" oil out of the factory to help hone the fit of pieces and parts. Drain it too soon and you're not helping matters.

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This had crossed my mind on the way home, but I was hoping the subject wouldn't come up (at least until tomorrow pm). I have to take advice on this. Switching to a normal oil would prolong the run-in period - no bad thing, but if after 1000miles you use full throttle/high rpm, and the mating surfaces still haven't been "smoothed off", then the oil film might be penetrated leading to bearing damage. On the other hand, an early oil change does remove all the debris from the oil. Hmmmmm ?

Alex, 5000 miles for a run-in period sounds out by a factor of ten. Possibly the advice was that the engine would not be fully run-in until 5000 ?, when it would give its best performance ? This is entirely logical, but doesn't mean you have to nurse the engine for 5000miles. Rana had a Golf, he may be able to shed some light on this (but I wouldn't trust him with a lawnmower myself )

I think Oldie's question is still valid, Paul. There's a trend towards reducing the cost and hassle of ownership, particularly where it applies to business users. If you can avoid losing the vehicle for a service, then it's a big selling point. Whether this is best for a private owner is a different question. To be honest, the engines are durability tested with the specified service intervals in mind, and I've never heard of any issues due to oil degredation.

I'll look into this a bit more, as I don't full understand it myself...

Brian

quote:

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Originally posted by alexgerrard:
I'd check in the book, but that means getting up off my backside and going to the car.....

ag

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Yeah, I thought about checking in my book, but that also means ...etc.

Give the dealer/importer tech dept a call if you want to confirm the run-in procedure. Running in for 5K certainly won't hurt....

Brian

My father's just set my reversed memory straight. Less advanced manufacturers (Jeep, Ford, etc) most recently used special break-in oil while better engineered makes (Toyota, Honda, etc) abandoned it years ago, after achieving tighter tolerances. Of course Brian can give us the official word soon...

What Brian says is indeed sensible. If you intend to hold on to the car for several years, running-in is wise even if the manufacturer makes no specific recommendation. Safer still is a voluntary 1000-2000km first oil change (having seen how drivers in assembly plants treat brand new cars throughout Europe). I would do this myself even though close-tolerance manufacture, high-tech lubes and advanced washing techniques generally tend to minimise metal shavings and leftover casting material (and other, stranger, substances) from further damaging "contact" surfaces. But, generally we do develop engines to ensure that satistactory life is maintained if the balls are thrashed off the engine in its first mile of life, even with the minimum-clearance specification components. Most testbed tests are begun after a 10 hour "run-in schedule" and we are normally already running at full power speed by the 9th hour or so. Having said all that, I wouldn't get hung-up at all over running in.

I think US manufacturers generally use cheaper factory-fill oils in the US because of an oil-change culture.

As for VW's iron block engines: anecdotes and my own experience is that they take an immensely long time (20k+) to achieve full performance but I certainly wouldn't hold back on the revs and throttle for that long. Mine gulped oil in this period, so "oil changes" happening continuously by default. On the other hand, I've been working for the last 4 years on the Renaultsport 225 (with much higher loading) and this was fully run-in from the performance point of view by 1000km or so. BTW, Brian, I had a Bora (much superior to a Golf, stiffer you see)...and if you are going to mention lawnmowers, then I shall have to bring up a certain "1400cc" turbo that only just made it up Lickey Hill.

Interesting stuff. I always thought the point was to lap surfaces together - implying light loading as more important than absolute speed, and ensuring a minimum of idling. Having built a couple of 'cooking' engines in the past, doing the 'cam break' often frightens people - 20mins at about 2500 - 3K rpm right off the bench.

Regardless, I can vouch for VW engines being slow to wear - I once pulled the head off the GF's Polo for fun and the cross-hatching from the bore-honing was still clearly visible - at 140K miles! Great little car that one....

One more question for mainly Rana and Brian butI would be greatful for answers from anyone.Back in my misspent youth I used to try to get the last few bhp out of my cars mainly by simply matching ports, gas flowing heads,changing carb's etc etc and I also kept a small box in the car of assorted springs and needles for the carb's so I could change them anytime to suit my different needs[I must have been completly mad,little has changed now then either ].With the use of modern manufactering methods ie die casting and engine management systems a lot of the "old tricks" are now no longer an option.Is there anyway of squeezing a few more bhp out of modern engines without resorting to rechipping and more importantly invalidating the warranty ? Just a thought you understand
oldie.

quote:

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Originally posted by oldie:
One more question for mainly Rana and Brian butI would be greatful for answers from anyone.Back in my misspent youth I used to try to get the last few bhp out of my cars mainly by simply matching ports, gas flowing heads,changing carb's etc etc and I also kept a small box in the car of assorted springs and needles for the carb's so I could change them anytime to suit my different needs[I must have been completly mad,little has changed now then either ].With the use of modern manufactering methods ie die casting and engine management systems a lot of the "old tricks" are now no longer an option.Is there anyway of squeezing a few more bhp out of modern engines without resorting to rechipping and more importantly invalidating the warranty ? Just a thought you understand
oldie.

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Not an expert but a few bhp is possible with exhaust intake fiddling. The gain is probably outweighed by the insurance probelems. The 182 would then have been the better choice.

If engine tweaking is not an option, the only other route would be weight reduction for a better power-to-weight ratio. Bin all that sissy stuff like rear seats, leccy window motors, a/c, carpets etc (+ fit lighter wheels) and give that engine a lighter load

Steve

Oldie,

Just a quick note before you add the mileage. More importantly in the first couple hundred miles or so, try not keep the revs at a constant speed. Keep them low, but vary the rev range and what's important is to give your engine a short "blip" of throttle every couple of miles. The reason for this is that modern engines usually have fairly fine honed cylinder walls and the piston ring can polish this before it has the chance to bed in properly. The act of blipping the throttle to highish revs will increase the pressure the ring exerts on the walls and bed itself in better without the generation of hot spots.

Also, changing the oil at 500-1,000 miles is a must if you want to keep the engine in pristine condition. It's the swarf/dirt that will do the single most damage in this period. I would also advise using synthetic oil. These notes are and will be relevant to any engine, no matter whether it was built in the seventies or 2004.

Regarding the increase in power in your road car, I'm sure it invalidate your warranty and your car insurance.

quote:

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Originally posted by oldie:
Is there anyway of squeezing a few more bhp out of modern engines without resorting to rechipping and more importantly invalidating the warranty ? Just a thought you understand
oldie.

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No Oldie. Rana and Brian have already done all that for you

The only possibility would be to run your car on the highest octane fuel that it's mapped for. Probably 98RON if it has a knock sensor, maybe even the 100RONs that are available.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rana Ali:
...and if you are going to mention lawnmowers, then I shall have to bring up a certain "1400cc" turbo that only just made it up Lickey Hill.

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So cruel. So very, very cruel.

regards,

BOR

Ahhhhhhhhhhh well, it was just a thought!
oldie

Oldie old bean do you know of any Japanese restaurants that have opened round your way within the last 18 months or so, just curious ?
innit, I'd love to know the dope on them, innit,

Fritz Von Buyacarfrommejohn

Hi Graham
a bit off thread this one, but here we go
Most of them have been around for some time now ,but restaurants in Brighton come and go that fast that it's imposible to keep up with which one's have just opened and which one's have just closed
Moshi Moshi in Bartholemew Sq.
E-Kagen in Sydney St.
Okinami in York Place.
" in Church Rd. [Hove]
Sapporo in Preston St.
Moshi Moshi- has had a very good reputation for years
Okinami-I'm told has some of the best Sushi in the area, made fresh on the premises
Sapporo- looks good from the outside and thats as near as I would get to it ,as I wouldn't eat in any restaurant in Preston St. [ just walk round to Little Preston St. and look at the backs and Kitchens of all the restaurants in Preston St.If that wouldn't put you off I don't know what would.
not sure if they do dope though! hope this helps
NOODLE PIP OLD BOY!!
oldie