Help - car brake problems
Posted by: Martin Payne on 23 August 2004
I have a Vauxhall Vectra which is giving me intermittent problems with the brakes. The local Vauxhall dealer is mystified. Can anyone here help?
Twice over the last five months I have put my foot on the brake pedal, and my foot has gone nearly down to the floor before anything has happened (and the steering pulled to one side - left, I think). I am told that means that one of the two braking circuits failed. At least one of the times the pedal went soft on one depression and then to the floor the next time (so at least a tiny warning). Once the system began to restore itself, the pedal would give a small amount of braking at the top of it's travel, but this disappeared if the pedal was pressed further, then acted as above once the pdeal was fully down.
After the first incident the boiling point of the brake fluid was checked, and found to be contaminated with water. The fluid was replaced, but the problem has now happened again, and the fluid is fine this time.
This car had a similar problem 18 months ago (before I owned it), and after much faffing around the main ABS cylinder was replaced (at huge expense).
The garage (a Vauxhall dealer) have told me that they cannot diagnose the problem until I can demonstrate it happening to them. Until then, I'm supposed to merrily drive it around waiting to crash, I suppose?
Any thoughts, anyone?
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Twice over the last five months I have put my foot on the brake pedal, and my foot has gone nearly down to the floor before anything has happened (and the steering pulled to one side - left, I think). I am told that means that one of the two braking circuits failed. At least one of the times the pedal went soft on one depression and then to the floor the next time (so at least a tiny warning). Once the system began to restore itself, the pedal would give a small amount of braking at the top of it's travel, but this disappeared if the pedal was pressed further, then acted as above once the pdeal was fully down.
After the first incident the boiling point of the brake fluid was checked, and found to be contaminated with water. The fluid was replaced, but the problem has now happened again, and the fluid is fine this time.
This car had a similar problem 18 months ago (before I owned it), and after much faffing around the main ABS cylinder was replaced (at huge expense).
The garage (a Vauxhall dealer) have told me that they cannot diagnose the problem until I can demonstrate it happening to them. Until then, I'm supposed to merrily drive it around waiting to crash, I suppose?
Any thoughts, anyone?
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by john rubberneck
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Hammerhead
If you're a member of the AA/RAC or Green Flag, get them to come out and check it over ASAP - they know their onions! Sounds like the Vauxhall dealer is wasting your time, spending your money and not giving a to$$ about your safety.
Cheers,
Steve
Cheers,
Steve
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by DavidY80
The thought that springs immeadiately to mind is that your insurance company probably won't pay out should you be involved in an accident since you are driving the car with the knowledge that the brakes are faulty in some way. You've also now put this knowledge in the public domain.
I'd suggest you ask the dealer to pull their finger out.
I'd suggest you ask the dealer to pull their finger out.
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by DavidY80:
I'd suggest you ask the dealer to pull their finger out.
I'm having another garage take a look at it tomorrow.
The dealer simply refused to take any further action until I could demonstrate the problem to them.
The car used to be my Mum's, and her local garage attacked the problem (18 months ago) with 2 parts ignorance and 3 parts enthusiasm. [OK, we'll try changing this bit next...] It cost her a lot of money, and the exact same problem is back again.
I'm desperate to get an idea of what the problem probably is *before* we get into more indiscriminate part replacement.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Paul Ranson
If the car is not leaking brake fluid then the problem must lie in the master cylinder or the ABS actuator thing.
A quick google lead to http://www.ilexa.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=13;action=display;threadid=2266 which looks hopeful.
Paul
A quick google lead to http://www.ilexa.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=13;action=display;threadid=2266 which looks hopeful.
Paul
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Martin Payne
Paul,
thanks for the link, but I have some trouble displaying the site, and can't find any relevant stuff on the pages that I can find.
If it's not too much trouble, and a nice simple job, could you post of copy of the relevant text?
Many thanks, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
thanks for the link, but I have some trouble displaying the site, and can't find any relevant stuff on the pages that I can find.
If it's not too much trouble, and a nice simple job, could you post of copy of the relevant text?
Many thanks, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Derek Wright
Concensus of the thread on the other forum was that it was an ABS pump/unit/modulator issue
Derek
<< >>
Derek
<< >>
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by Martin Hull
With a bit of cut and paste the posts were:
The car is in good order (for a vectra) but has a brake problem, Pedal pushes right to the bottom brakes work but only at the bottom, so far, all brakes bled, new master cylinder, air and leak check, nothing !!!
…
Brakes have passed the MOT as all are pulling up correctly but are dangerous.
…
Help please............
With that amount of travel it should have failed the test.
…
Is it discs all round or disc and drum?
Just had the same problem with my vectra (1998 2.0L sri estate) New master cylinder checked for leaks but nothing, local vaux dealer say they have had the same problem and could be the ABS causing the problem. I tried pulling the fuse out for ABS with the engine running which turns the system off but the fault still occurs, but with the engine switched off the pedal remains solid with no travel.I know that there is no vacuum assistance but if any seals are gone surley they would pass with the engine off.
Any ideas anybody?
…
yeah i would definetly say its the abs pump causing the problem.Done few of these now with same problem.
...
i had the same problem with a vectra had to change abs unit hundred and fifty quid from scrappy but done the job straight away ...
…
Agree. Internal fault in ABS modulator causes symptoms like this
Cheers,
Martin
The car is in good order (for a vectra) but has a brake problem, Pedal pushes right to the bottom brakes work but only at the bottom, so far, all brakes bled, new master cylinder, air and leak check, nothing !!!
…
Brakes have passed the MOT as all are pulling up correctly but are dangerous.
…
Help please............
With that amount of travel it should have failed the test.
…
Is it discs all round or disc and drum?
Just had the same problem with my vectra (1998 2.0L sri estate) New master cylinder checked for leaks but nothing, local vaux dealer say they have had the same problem and could be the ABS causing the problem. I tried pulling the fuse out for ABS with the engine running which turns the system off but the fault still occurs, but with the engine switched off the pedal remains solid with no travel.I know that there is no vacuum assistance but if any seals are gone surley they would pass with the engine off.
Any ideas anybody?
…
yeah i would definetly say its the abs pump causing the problem.Done few of these now with same problem.
...
i had the same problem with a vectra had to change abs unit hundred and fifty quid from scrappy but done the job straight away ...
…
Agree. Internal fault in ABS modulator causes symptoms like this
Cheers,
Martin
Posted on: 23 August 2004 by count.d
If you took the ABS unit out of the equation, I can't think of situation that would cause the symptoms that you describe. Master cylinders are very simple devices I can't imagine a intermittent problem with a seal.
ABS units are not so simple.
Sounds dramatic, but I wouldn't drive that car. I would pay the garage to change the ABS unit and eliminate that out of the equation.
ABS units are not so simple.
Sounds dramatic, but I wouldn't drive that car. I would pay the garage to change the ABS unit and eliminate that out of the equation.
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by MichaelC
I will emphasise the advice not to drive the car until the garage (or another garage) sorts out the problem.
Having experienced a complete brake system failure in my father in law's car last week (very very luckily there was no accident and I had my little ones in the car at the time) I do not want to go through that again. It is not worth the risk.
Mike
Having experienced a complete brake system failure in my father in law's car last week (very very luckily there was no accident and I had my little ones in the car at the time) I do not want to go through that again. It is not worth the risk.
Mike
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Brian OReilly
quote:
Originally posted by DavidY80:
The thought that springs immeadiately to mind is that your insurance company probably won't pay out should you be involved in an accident since you are driving the car with the knowledge that the brakes are faulty in some way. You've also now put this knowledge in the public domain.
With all due respect David, Martin's problem is not with his insurance co, it's with the law courts should he kill someone in an accident.
My sympathies Martin, you're in a very awkward position. But you can't drive this car anymore I'm afraid, the potential consequences of a brake failure are too great.
Try contacting someone at the manufacturer. If this has happenned before they must be aware of the problem.
The problem lies within the ABS equipment, maybe a sticking valve, maybe an electrical problem, possibly the wheel speed sensor has a fault.Electrical/electronic problems should cause a fail-safe condition - ie loss of abs but no loss of braking. I'm guessing sticking/corroded valve if there has been a lot of water contamination.
Intermittent faults are very hard to fix.Wish I could help more.
Brian OReilly
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Martin Payne
The problem I have is that the ABS unit was replaced a little over a year ago, which you would hope would eliminate that as the cause of the problem.
Spending another £1,600 to have the unit replaced a second time just isn't an option if it's not going to fix the problem.
Of course, it's possible that this unit is also faulty, but if so is something else causing the failures, and will this happen again in another year's time??? Maybe the garage that fitted the current unit screwed the job up somehow?
Thanks for you help, everybody.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Spending another £1,600 to have the unit replaced a second time just isn't an option if it's not going to fix the problem.
Of course, it's possible that this unit is also faulty, but if so is something else causing the failures, and will this happen again in another year's time??? Maybe the garage that fitted the current unit screwed the job up somehow?
Thanks for you help, everybody.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Payne:
Of course, it's possible that this unit is also faulty, but if so is something else causing the failures, and will this happen again in another year's time??? Maybe the garage that fitted the current unit screwed the job up somehow?
Martin
I am not mechanically minded but a number of years ago I had a problem with a Celica. The car was failing to start when the engine was hot and the alternator was diagnosed as faulty and replaced. The problem continued and another alternator fitted. The problem continued - eventually Toyota GB sent one of their engineers to investigate and remedy the problem. It transpired that the underlying problem was not with the alternator or associated bells and whistles but with the alarm/immobiliser system. Heaven only knows how but it was interfering with the alternator.
Is your car still under warranty? Given that this seems to be an ongoing problem would it not be possible to involve Vauxhall? Or am I being unrealistic???
Mike
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Martin Payne
Mike,
no, car is not under warranty.
I talked to Vauxhall who suggested - taking it into the Vauxhall dealer for them to diagnose the problem.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
no, car is not under warranty.
I talked to Vauxhall who suggested - taking it into the Vauxhall dealer for them to diagnose the problem.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Paul Hutchings
Martin,
Did you get my emails? Not in a hurry for an acknowledgment/reply, but I wouldn't want to find they got lost in some spamtrap (you mentioned putting "Naim" in the title, which I did, and I assume it has some bearing on where they end up)?
Paul
Did you get my emails? Not in a hurry for an acknowledgment/reply, but I wouldn't want to find they got lost in some spamtrap (you mentioned putting "Naim" in the title, which I did, and I assume it has some bearing on where they end up)?
Paul
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by count.d
Martin,
When you say the ABS "unit" was replaced, there are different parts to the unit and they are not all in the same place.
The problem you describe is caused by the ABS system in some way. Basically the ABS system consists of a module, modulator and wheel sensors. The ABS module receives the signals produced from the sensors in each wheel hub. It is by comparing these signals that the module can determine which of the wheels is about to lock up and will order the modulator to release the brake pressure to the affected wheel.
The modulator is connected directly to the brake servo, and receives the full brake pressure applied via the servo from the driver. On a given signal from the module, the modulator will operate the solenoid valve and release the brake pressure from one or more wheels. The ABS modulator actually contains its own pump which can rapidly increase the pressure inside a wheel cylinder, depending on the pressure applied to the brake pedal.
I was in a Vauxhall garage this morning and mentioned a friend had a problem. They of couse suggested you bring it in, and also added that Vectra modulator number 0 265 220 024 commonly caused a soft pedal to the floor.
So, I would ask exactly what they changed and find out if your modulator is faulty.
When you say the ABS "unit" was replaced, there are different parts to the unit and they are not all in the same place.
The problem you describe is caused by the ABS system in some way. Basically the ABS system consists of a module, modulator and wheel sensors. The ABS module receives the signals produced from the sensors in each wheel hub. It is by comparing these signals that the module can determine which of the wheels is about to lock up and will order the modulator to release the brake pressure to the affected wheel.
The modulator is connected directly to the brake servo, and receives the full brake pressure applied via the servo from the driver. On a given signal from the module, the modulator will operate the solenoid valve and release the brake pressure from one or more wheels. The ABS modulator actually contains its own pump which can rapidly increase the pressure inside a wheel cylinder, depending on the pressure applied to the brake pedal.
I was in a Vauxhall garage this morning and mentioned a friend had a problem. They of couse suggested you bring it in, and also added that Vectra modulator number 0 265 220 024 commonly caused a soft pedal to the floor.
So, I would ask exactly what they changed and find out if your modulator is faulty.
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Hutchings:
Did you get my emails?
Yes, thanks. I hadn't checked that account this morning, until you prompted me. Your colleagues comments look very helpful.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Paul Hutchings
No worries, another chap emailed me to say
"My son works for Vauxhall liasing with dealers concerns. Can you supply
either vehicle reg or chassis number then he can check database for
model type, age etc."
It's obviously your call but if the dealer gives no joy etc you have my email address.
The one I emailed you from "Mick" is from a guy who works in our braking department, given what the company does, he should know his stuff :-)
regards,
Paul
"My son works for Vauxhall liasing with dealers concerns. Can you supply
either vehicle reg or chassis number then he can check database for
model type, age etc."
It's obviously your call but if the dealer gives no joy etc you have my email address.
The one I emailed you from "Mick" is from a guy who works in our braking department, given what the company does, he should know his stuff :-)
regards,
Paul
Posted on: 24 August 2004 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by count.d:
So, I would ask exactly what they changed and find out if your modulator is faulty.
I took the car into another garage today (he's a local chap who does most of my servicing).
Both the master cylinder & the pump (modulator?) appear to be new items (well a year-and-a-bit old), and this tallies with the fact my Mum's garage just kept replacing things (at escalating expense) until the problem went away.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.