On behalf of quiet Americans
Posted by: Bhoyo on 04 November 2004
There has been a significant absence from the forum in the past few days: Americans. That is partly because, over here, we are still trying to digest the enormity of what happened on Nov. 2. But it's more than that.
The knee-jerk anti-Americanism coming from Europe is despicable. It betrays ignorance covered by a thin veneer of hypocrisy and cant, of hatred and prejudice. Americans have long been a favourite target of this unthinking bigotry. Unfortunately, there have been many examples of this on the forum this week.
The American contributors here are too decent to protest. I am not an American, nor am I particularly decent, and I do protest.
There have been some honourable exceptions: Some of you continue to argue your case against US foreign policy well, but are careful to separate your views from attacks on the American people, many of whom share those same views. Others have been less civilized. I won't name names; you know who you are, and you should be ashamed of yourselves. You believe in the stereotype of the "dumb Yank" without having a clue about American society in all its complexity.
Consider this: Approximately 120 million Americans voted on Nov. 2, with about 56 million supporting John Kerry. 56 MILLION. That's bigger than most European populations, let alone their electorates. The 60 million or so who voted for Bush are not all drooling, fundamentalist loonies (many are; the senior administration leaders almost certainly will be). The country is divided in many seemingly irreconcilable ways, including by ethnicity (black, white, Hispanic especially), geography, sexuality, gender, faith and socio-economics. And it's sub-divided among each of those categories. That's true in many nations; here, it's even more apparent. The country defies easy analysis, or pat generalisations. It has not given Bush an unqualified mandate to do anything, and it does not allow for instant judgments by Americans or foreigners.
Our American contributors tend to be well-informed, articulate, tolerant, witty and friendly. It's hardly surprising they've been reluctant to step back into a place where they are made to feel so unwelcome.
You should never judge a whole people by its rulers. Not the Americans, not the Israelis, not the Iraqis, the Germans, the French – certainly not the British, where NO ONE elects the head of state.
So as you listen to your favourite American music, watch American TV or movies, enjoy American authors – much of it using technology that is the fruit of American innovation, in countries that exist at least in part because of American sacrifice – take a moment to decide whether you're willing to talk like human beings about and to Americans. Or are you going to sink below the level of all that you rail against?
Regards,
Davie (edited for spelling)
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by JonR
quote:
Originally posted by ErikL:
Erik Ludwig
Seattle, Washington
Aaahh....that explains that little mystery then!!
jon
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by matthewr
Eric -- I have e-connections to a number of US diabetics and one lives in Alabama and made some throwaway comment about the "shrimp vote". The incongruity of a "shrimp vote" and the most significant Presidential vote in 50 years caught my attention.
The local importance of the shrimp industry notwithstanding the existance of such relatively obscure issues on democratic ballots do help to point out one of the major reasons why (IMHO) Europeans have such difficulties understanding America which is at the heart of Davie's thread and the other Erik's post.
Namely, that it's very hard for Europeans to grasp the sheer size and diversity of the US and how this directly affects the culture and nature of America and Americans. And that Alabama is really very different from, say, Louisiana and profoundly different from, say, North Dakota. Europeans, it seems to me, like to view Americans as terribly parochial compared to this side of the Atlantic without factoring in this difference in scale.
So much of our view of America is defined by New York and California that it's easy to miss the fact that majority of country is radically different and there is an awful lot of it. Watching, as I do, quite a bit of NCAA Football, I I find it oddly fascinating to see live pictures of places as disparate as Norman Oklahoma, Columbus Ohio, Fayetteville Arkansas, etc. -- the arial blimp shots, and local "colour" segments added to such broadcasts make for compelling viewing despite the essentially banal nature of such coverage (mostly it's students painted in the appropriate colour cooking large amounts of some improbable creature that has the misfortune of being the local food speciality).
Matthew
PS Talking of which, I was looking at the electorial map yesterday and found myself wondering, what is Wisconsin like? The only ting I know about Wisconsin is Green Bay, Brett Farve and they eat a lot of cheese. How come it voted Deomcrat? I'd have thought it would be vaguely mid-western and bible-belt? What's it's major city/cities? What would I find if I went there? Indeed, could I legitimately go there on holiday?
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by JonR
Well if nothing else, that's something new I've learned today...
I now know where Green Bay is!
Thanks Matthew!
jon
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by Paul Ranson
Madison is the big town in Wisconsin I think. If you go in February next year you could do 'Kites on Ice',
http://www.madfest.org/kites/index.html which seems to be outside, on a lake, implying something about the climate.
Paul
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by JohanR
quote:
and not legislating a woman's right to decide whether to bear or not bear children.
The US is surely one of the most abortion tolerant states in the world?
Most probably. Here in the European Union I can immedetially think of three countries that strictly forbid any abortions. Poland, Portugal and Ireland. In Portugal a 17 year old girl recently stood trial, with the risk of a three years sentence, for having taken an abortion pill!!!
quote:
Morevoer, I don't think any of us individually have much power over the direction and actions of our respective countries, frankly. I know we're told we do, but I don't see it. For instance, I don't think any of us could have significantly affected the last election in our home country, even if we had directed our entire effort at doing so.
In the US, with a two party system and a close call between the parties, at least one have a small chance of "voting away" the "bad" guy.
Here in Sweden the governing party only gets about 40 percent of the votes! They have been in power most of time since 1932 and have never had a majority of there own. Even if someone else would get into power there mandarins would still be in total dominance in the civil services (like there guys being headmasters at every university except three). Socialists as they are, they have allways had clear connections to the countrys biggest industrial group. They control the unions to.
Is GWB that powerful in his own country?
JohanR
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by ErikL
WisconsinI'm no expert but I'll take a swing.
The major cities are- Milwaukee (Harley Davidson, power tools, Miller Brewing), Madison (U. of Wisconsin- one of the country's most liberal student bodies; also the state capitol), and Green Bay (brrrrr). Then of course there are Appleton, Oshkosh, La Crosse, and Kenosha. Somehow Wisconsin cities have been the setting for numerous American sitcoms. I believe there are several Native tribes that play a key role in state politics as well.
The state has a uniquely high proportion of German (especially), Irish, and Scandanavian immigrants and in some towns you'd think you were in Bavaria based on local signage and language.
There have always been sizable anti-war, pro worker/women's/consumer rights, and socialist movements in the state, and IIRC either Milwaukee or Green Bay has had several Socialist party mayors. Along with that, U. of Wisconsin is a fine institution that has long worked with the state to innovate solutions on technological, governing, economic, etc basis. In recent years, Wisconsin led the nation in its practice of welfare reform, for example.
I know that was weak, but it sheds a light on a few things. This might help too-
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/scc/toppage1.htm Posted on: 05 November 2004 by ErikL
PS- Matthew, something tells me you would get a kick out of, for example, flying into a major Southern or Midwest city and driving across the country as I did from NY to Seattle several years ago. What left the greatest imprints were our Natives, the wide open spaces, the act of crossing the Mississippi, and the existence of modern cowboys (hey, I grew up in NY
).
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by 7V
quote:
and not legislating a woman's right to decide whether to bear or not bear children.
The US is surely one of the most abortion tolerant states in the world?
Michael Portillo made the interesting point on Andrew Neil's 'This Week' show that one of the principal differences between our electoral system and that in the USA is that they are asked to vote for or against various moral and ethical issues, such as abortion rights, while in the UK these issues are more independent of party politics. Here one may find, for example, MPs in both parties either for or against legal abortions. Portillo indicated that he felt our system was better in this respect.
I must say that I agree. Taking the specific issue of abortion, things have changed significantly since its legalisation in the sixties. Firstly, doctors can now keep premature babies alive when they are born much earlier in the pregnancy than was previously the case. Secondly, real-time, three dimensional images of the living foetus can now be produced and the act of abortion itself, filmed (and I might say with horrific effects on the viewer).
It is popular to speak about the rights of women to do what they want with their own bodies and rightly so. However, it seems to me that the issue is one of whether or not the foetus can be considered to be a living human. If so, abortion is murder. If not, abortion is permissable. It's as clear as that and the rights of women (or men) must be secondary.
I don't bring this up as a religious issue but as an ethical one - I'm certainly not a member of the Religious Right. In fact, I don't have clear answers as to at what point in the pregnancy the foetus becomes a human. Nevertheless, it disturbs me that we discuss questions of tolerance, liberalism and rights, without adequately considering the rights of those humans who can't speak for themselves.
Steve M
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by matthewr
Erik,
So Wisconisn is basically a Socialist paradise full of Scandanavians. Sounds like my sort of place.
I had considered a driving holiday in the mid-west but am leaning more towards your neck of the woods -- specifically Oregon, Washington State, Vancouver, Whistler. Having watched my copy of
"The Collective" many times I feel I need some Pacific Coast action.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by Kevin-W
Nice post Davie.
I've spent time in the USA, including places like Kentucky, Mississippi, Ohio, etc - the states allegedly full of Bush-voting morons. Everybody met was extraordinarily gracious, hospitable and kind (had I been black maybe things would have been different).
There's a lot wrong with America: the guns, the religion, the more malign cultural influences, its refusal to listen to other voices, the racism, the conspicuous consumption, the greed, the funding of the IRA, the short-sightedness, Sheryl Crow and Mariah Carey, the excessive patriotism... I could go on and on.
But there's much to praise in the country. I think Americans as a people are wonderfully kind and hospitable; I like their optimism and energy, their generosity. America has often been a force for good around the world - helping to rebuild a Europe and Japan shattered by the war being one of them.
Sure, there are arseholes in America, but hey, aren't there arseholes here as well? We've all been appalled by crass, loudmouthed and ill-mannered Yanks, but I would suspect we've all been ashamed of loudmouthed, crass and ill-mannered Brit-yobs too. i know I have.
And yes, America has re-elected that wanker Bush - but, by my calculation, only about 27% of all adults did. That leaves 63% who didn't vote for him.
And, who are we to criticise Americans for voting Bush back in anyway? We're going to vote his fellow wanker, T. Blair, back in next year, aren't we?
So, let's lay off America, except when it's really warranted.
If you wanted to list America's positive contributions to the world, here's a list to get started:
Duke Ellington
The Onion
Seinfeld
Reece's Peanut Butter Cups
Elvis
The US Constitution (generally, a pretty good thing)
Lucky Strikes (I'm on dangerous ground there, I know)
Public Enemy
Howard Hawks
Miles Davis
Louis Armstrong
Orson Welles
John Dos Passos
F Scott Fitzgerald
Edward Hopper
Jackson Pollock
Wilmslow Homer
Philip Roth
John Updike
Humphrey Bogart
The Residents
The Beach Boys
Sly Stone
See how easy it is? Could go on for hours.
Kevin (BBC Radio 4)
PS One thing that I really do hate about a certain type of braggart American is all that "We saved your butts in WW2" shit. It's gotta stop 'cause it's a complete lie. As Anthony Burgess once so eloquently put it, the war was won by three nations: America won it with money; Britain won it with time; and Russia won it with blood. And how would America have stoood up to the Blitz?
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by JBoulder
quote:
If you wanted to list America's positive contributions to the world, here's a list to get started:
Duke Ellington
The Onion
Seinfeld
...
- South Park (seriously – and I can't wait for their new movie "Team America – World Police"
http://teamamerica.com/)
- Ben & Jerry's Chocolate Fudge Brownie – best ice cream in the known universe. But for now I have to fly to Stockholm to get some
so I wish B&J would invade Finland instead of GWB doing it to NK or some other "evil" country.
- Apple products (well, since Steve came back)
Johan
- - - - -
"the recognition of facts is the beginning of all wisdom."
- J. K. Paasikivi -
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by ErikL
quote:
The Onion
Matthew,
This also comes from Wisconsin.
PT me when/if you come to the Pacific NW, as I'd be happy to provide recommendations.
Posted on: 05 November 2004 by 7V
quote:
If you wanted to list America's positive contributions to the world, here's a list to get started:
Duke Ellington
The Onion
Seinfeld
...
The Simpsons
Major Simpsons thing on Channel 4 from 9.00pm tonight, if you're interested.
Steve M
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by NaimDropper
Tom-
I believe that the grand average would fall somewhere inbetween those poles.
I know very few people that trust, without question, what the US government tells us. Most of us ultimately do what it tells us to preserve our society.
A pact we have between all of us is that we must support the final direction decided by the ruling party. Otherwise our system would fall apart. The decisions are never by one individual and as one could imagine it takes forever to debate things before they're done.
Now, if you have a bunch of like-minded folks surrounding the president (as we currently do) then the debates are much shorter and the action much quicker.
Diversity of thought slows the process but yields better decisions.
You'll find VERY few people that are against the war in Iraq AND against the troops fighting. They see the troops as doing their duty though the decision to put them there may be wrong.
At the end of the day most people don't see the other "side" as traitors but as folks with carefully considered (but wrong!) opinions.
Given the size of this land and the incredible diversity of the people, I can't imagine how any media-sized bite of this could represent what is going on here.
Take a drive from NYC to Seattle across the North and then down through Southern California and the South down to the tip of Florida. This is an amazing place. Don't forget Hawaii and Alaska!
David
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by NaimDropper
What are you waiting for, then?
If you pass through my part of Ohio a dinner is on me. You'll never think of us "midwestern rubes" in the same way, guaranteed.
Maybe that's not a good thing!??! You'll just have to find out.
David
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by NaimDropper
Just read my post again, I hope you take that in the best light as intended.
David
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by NaimDropper
Same here.
I'm not familiar with the Strait Story.
David
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by JonR
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
One thing that has come out of this War/Election for me is a greater insight into what makes Americans tick. This board has given me access to people I'd never come into contact with and with views I've had to take away and seriously think about.
I don't agree with all US policy etc but at least thanks to you Yanks I have had to face upto the issues rather than just taking the easy kneejerk reaction.
Thanks.
Tom
Seconded.
jon
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by NaimDropper
Yes, I remember that movie, though I did not see it. Will have to rent it.
I don't recommend driving a lawn mower on the roads around here.
Now a $350,000 combine tractor, that's a different story.
I, too, have been learning much from reading all the posts and I appreciate the high emotions, carefully written opinions and everything in between. It helps me understand a bit about the US perception from our closest allies.
David
Posted on: 08 November 2004 by bhazen
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin-W:
One thing that I really do hate about a certain type of braggart American is all that "We saved your butts in WW2" shit. It's gotta stop 'cause it's a complete lie. As Anthony Burgess once so eloquently put it, the war was won by three nations: America won it with money; Britain won it with time; and Russia won it with blood. And how would America have stoood up to the Blitz?
That's one of the tragedies of modern American life; history and literature no longer being taught in the schools. My uncle was a minor diplomat working for FDR who tried valiantly to get Congressmen (mostly Republicans!) interested in supporting Churchill. The real story, not told in US textbooks, of the Great War and WWII is about how isolationist the US was, and how much prodding it took to even get lend-lease of a few moth-eaten destroyers for the Royal Navy. Most here think Eisenhower and Patton were brilliant strategic commanders; in truth, and in secret meetings, AlanBrooke and Montgomery saved the reputations of our two social-climbing generals more than once. That braggart mentality you correctly point out is a symptom of the self-absorbtion here. I'm afraid my country will go the way of Imperial Rome, with less decadent fun to boot if the new Yankee Taliban get their way.
America would have collapsed under the Blitz, we had hardly any military at all in 1940. That's not a comment on national character though; G.I.s were (generally) cheerfully agreeable about going to Europe to stop Fascism. Ironic, given the direction of today's US politics.
