SL2 and Bass

Hi Mike,

As you know I had a pair of SL2's for about six weeks and found the same as you. The amount of detail was phenominal yet the lack of weight and scale let it down badly. What bass was there was very fast and musical which is fine if you listen to classical or easy listening but for someone who likes rock or dance music it can be very dissapointing.

For the price of a new pair of SL2's you can get a pair of second hand NBL's which are a completely different animal.



Regards


NB

If the SL2's are so good at what they do, why not get a woofer to go with them to pick up the base?

Mike,

I'm probably in a minority on this [although I am an actual SL2 owner] but I do think the SL2 does bass but that this needs certain qualifications...
1) An SL2 won't produce a sub woofer like effect
2) I think the room plays a very important part in maximising the bass [and by this I don't mean room nodes and the like, although that will influence quality of bass etc., but size of room] - SL2 and my reasonable small listening room = bass, I'm less clear that they would do the same in a larger room [by which I mean a knock through of two sitting rooms in an old house or a large family living area in a new house]
3) Set up is crucial
4) The only real way of telling is to get a demo pair and try them out in your room - this is not a speaker which benefits from demos at dealers or shows [which I think accounts for some of its negative press on this forum]...

worst point about the SL2 is the inhumanly long burn in time!!!

In saying the above I must admit to not having heard either the NBL or NB's Neat - both probably do loads more bass [which might over power in some smaller rooms]...

Hope this helps,

Leopold

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Having said all that, when set up well they are an incredible speaker, especially active
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I'll second that, the SL2's have a wonderful sence of speed, transparancy and detail.

They give an insight to the music that I havn't heard with any other speaker.


Regards


NB

30Hz crossover? What are you on? You cannot hear 30Hz and I doubt you have the equipment to make it a 'feel' issue.

Your Alles won't come down anywhere near that level so if you are really crossing over at 30Hz you will have a gap between that and where the Alles start to work efficiently c. 80Hz-100hz.

I would guess that whilst the knob says 30Hz its probably nearer 70Hz in reality.

Sorry to disappoint but there you go, and as this is a technical forum its important to get a reality check every now and again.

T

Naim Speakers & Subwoofers

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So if you already own a pair of SL2 or similar and feel a lack of bass, consider a pair of Ref1s or any other sub which can be set to 30Hz crossover point.

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If the SL2's are so good at what they do, why not get a woofer to go with them to pick up the base?

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I've never found the quality (and quantity) of bass produced by Naim speakers in their respective price points wanting in any way. So it's a mite strange whenever I come across comments and feedback that they don't do bass or enough of it satisfactorily - besides PRT, isn't the way bass is handled one of the finer traits of the famous Naim sonic that most Naimnees come to enjoy and revere? I love bass done the "Naim way". The pitch, tone, pace, weight, and the way the bass blends in with the mids and highs was wonderful when I had my system.

Subwoofers in my opinion could and would alter the overall sound balance of Naim speakers, a sensitive area I would not touch or trifle with in set-up. I've not heard a sub-woofer that does it for me - they tend to overwhelm the room, kill the overall coherence, and clearly affects the pace as well. But I confess to being rather purist in my belief in the "full Naim system" doctrine, so I take whatever comes with my full Naim system and accept it for what it does, within its price/ performance context. It has always exceeded my expectations. The SBLs driven by passive 135s, and the DBLs for that matter, did bass very very few speakers could even closely match, but I guess our ears are all different and everything about "bass" is subjective.

Bass (or the lack of it) is mainly attributable to the set-up and the room.

We wouldn't pay 5,000 pounds for a pair of SL2s and then start wondering where the bass went - or whether there was any bass to begin with at this price point. For the expectations of an "SBL replacement", Naim can ill-afford the SL2's performance not just to do better bass; the order of magnitude was to improve on the overall sonics from tip to toe. And I believe Roy George has succeeded. He has too much at stake. Kudos to him.

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The amount of detail was phenominal yet the lack of weight and scale let it down badly.

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NB, 6 weeks with a relatively un-run-in pair of SL2s will not suitably qualify the overall assessment of the speakers in whether they seriously lack weight and scale, but nonetheless that was your experience with them, and I'm in no position to query what you heard in your set-up. Just not sure your comment above was really accurate.

If the SL2s use the same 8 incher as the SBLs, albeit in a different cabinet with different crossovers, my experience with the predecessor's run-in time is in full concurrence with Naim's advice that the SL2s would take 6 months of daily play to just about begin to really run-in. That's old news. The DBLs' 15 inchers take a full year apparently to really "loosen up" and properly shake you to the bone.

Good listening all; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Philip

naimniac for life

TPC

I'm no expert by a long shot. But it seems to me that Alex may have his crossover set about right. Crossovers are not on off switches. Depending on the crossover slope of his subs and the natural rolloff from his Allaes, he's quite possibly in the ballpark. If memory serves me, the best crossover point for a REL sub to my Spendor Sp 1/2's was right around 30 hz.

Food for thought
Clay

As I said. If the Alles lack base (which Alex says) then they cannot possibly come down to anywhere near 30Hz, not least given the power needed to drive any speaker down at that level.


I stand by my original post, what the knob says may not be what is happening.

Still an interesting topic.

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NB, 6 weeks with a relatively un-run-in pair of SL2s will not suitably qualify the overall assessment of the speakers in whether they seriously lack weight and scale, but nonetheless that was your experience with them, and I'm in no position to query what you heard in your set-up. Just not sure your comment above was really accurate.
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Phillip, I understand what youa re saying but the SL2's I had were not new, they were Naim's demonstration pair. I was privilidged to spend what most would consider is a lenghy home demonstration. I would say that in the time I had them I got to know them very well. I understand their presentation perfectly and I still claim they are one of the best speakers I have ever heard. Their musical insight is second to none and they portray the Naim Prat perfectly. However if you have read the summing up in the Jaw thread you will see that their presentation was not suitable for my listening tastes.

Now I have never claimed the SL2's don't do bass, they do and its very fast and tunefull but I prefer a speaker with a lot more clout. Its completely unreasonable to compare the Neat Ultimatums to the Naim SL2's as the Neats are almost twice the price and over twice the size of the SL2's.

My comments to those that think just adding a sub-woofer to the SL2's will cure the lack of weight and scale problem, is that if the SL2's don't have enough clout for you then buy a bigger speaker! If you have the right speaker in the first place then there is no need for a sub-woofer.


Regards


NB

Leopold,

I agree totally with what you wrote about the importance of the room. You seem very happy with your SL2s, what size room are you using yours in ? What kind of wall construction ? what kind of floor ?

As a long-term SL2 user (or anybody else with experience), how about passing on any setup tips you have for the speakers, like distance from the rear wall and so on.

Allan

Hi Mike

I guess the nub of this, is that the laws of physics cannot be cheated. One 8" driver will shift only so much air.

The sub-woofer love/hate schism is interesting, and again proves that we listen for different things.

If you want your bass to go deeper but remain subtle, a sub will do it for you (it will also open up the 'acoustic' of the sound generally)

If you want big,big scale and power, there is no substitute for a speaker that shifts a lot of air.

TPC

I agree with James, I can certainly hear 30Hz from my speakers.

I also have to agree with Alex B on his quoted setting of around 30Hz for his sub-woofer(s). My REL is set for 30Hz in combination with my TOTEM speakers which have a -3dB value of 28Hz.

TYpically if set up properly the sub has most effect during low volume listening when the main woofers are just not driving enough to produce the full bass they will generate at higher volume levels. Ir is all a matter of moving air and a powered sub running with the signal from the power ammp speaker terminals can be nicely integrated with high quality main speakers.

Incidentally the harmonics of even inaudible bass output will have a contribution to the final sound you CAN hear. Try listening to some BACH Organ music to hear what James is talking about (an Organ can reach down to about 16Hz which of course you feel rather than hear, but it is common to have notes down around 25Hz in the lower registers being played).

regards
GEOFF

Back again.

I agree with KNs points about the need to get bass you need a big cone to move air - yet my Kabers give pretty darn good bass response and the driver is 5" max. In fact, I think the bass is more pronounced than that which I have heard with SL2s.

At the risk of being branded a heretic, I have heard Linns' new Akurate 242, same price range as the SL2 ( and designed by the man who designed Kabers) and tha bass on these speakers was very impressive, as was the speaker overall.

I do listen to a good deal of dad rock: Floyd, Kate Bush, Prefab Sprout, Beatles etc and I want a bit of bass - if not of Balrog proportions.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Alex, are you sure its best to have the Ref 1s that close to the SL2s?

Since this is a technical forum, may I suggest that a speaker with 9 drive units is likely to produce weight and scale more successfully than one with 2 of similar size.

Mike,

You may find that the presentation of Neat's MF5's or MFS's suit your listening preferences.

Neat use Isobaric loading and therefore get much more pronounced bass from their speakers.

Regards

NB

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NB, 6 weeks with a relatively un-run-in pair of SL2s will not suitably qualify the overall assessment of the speakers in whether they seriously lack weight and scale, but nonetheless that was your experience with them, and I'm in no position to query what you heard in your set-up. Just not sure your comment above was really accurate.

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There can be few audiophiles, flat earth or round, who have not been deeply touched by Nigel's moving and all too brief quest for audio nirvana.

So I have to say that when I read the above, my jaw really did hit the floor.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

Nice one Steve

Regards


NB

Hi Nigel, I am glad to hear you're happy with the Neats, and prefer their presentation to the SL2s, which is all that matters. The comparisons must have been fun, and I did try very very hard to keep up with the "Jaw" thread, if to a certain point.

Hi-fi enjoyment is such a subjective arena, but it's keeping our objectivity that keeps this Forum balanced and kicking. Spot-on reply, thank you for clarifying, just that your quoted comment could have given "alternative" but not necessarily reflective impressions of the SL2s to those of us in the market for a pair, so I thought to clarify. I would think the SL2s in a modest-sized room, and suitably driven would have enough "balls", scale and clout to adequately excite the ears, and room.

Running in speakers requires patience, before you really hear them full song.

As for the subs, I personally wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole (too much of a good thing esp in smallish rooms), but as you and JN put it, there's no substitute for a speaker that's able to shift alot of air if scale, power and clout are what you're really after.
Which brings me to the DBLs, brutish as they are.

Enjoy the music; it's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

want bass? buy Bryston electronics and PMC speakers: natural sounding with strong bass notes.

Audio Nirvana

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There can be few audiophiles, flat earth or round, who have not been deeply touched by Nigel's moving and all too brief quest for audio nirvana.

So I have to say that when I read the above, my jaw really did hit the floor.

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Steve, I am convinced audio nirvana doesn't exist, that it's a very temporary state of the mind if you think you do find it, but still, the quest goes on, perilously, and rather detrimentally to the bank account if I might add.

I was rather envious of Nigel's daliances with the SL2s, NBLs and Neats, to say the least.

Enjoy the music; it's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

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Originally posted by Allan Probin:
Leopold,

I agree totally with what you wrote about the importance of the room. You seem very happy with your SL2s, what size room are you using yours in ? What kind of wall construction ? what kind of floor ?

Allan

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Allan,

I guess I feel a little protective of them as they seemed destined to suffer, on this forum, from the disdain of satisfied SBL users [no disrespect intended]. Having demoed a well worn in pair from Naim [I often wonder if these were the same as NB's] I made the calculation to go for new, rather than chance [with second hand SBL]. I sometimes think this forum is the best salesperson for NAIM electronics in the world but if I were reading to help consider a NAIM louderspeaker [other than the late lamented SBL] I guess I would be unnerved [I know I was last year before I demoed the SL2].

My room is 18 foot down [into a bay] and 12 foot across...the walls are pretty solid brick [the house is a 1906 Edwardian semi]. The SL2's fire across the room [so they sit back against the dividing wall between my house and the next, the thickest wall]. The stand 6 inches out from the wall and are gently 'toed-in' toward the listening position...my dealer spent an age determining exact position and I think this is absolutely crucial. My listening position begins about 15 inches out from opposite wall, this again was subject of much experimentation. The floors are the original wooden boards with a fairly thick carpet on top. The SL2's sit on levelled on screwed heads drilled into the board. No MANA, no granite slabs [my dealer is very against these and having got them set up I really don't want to disturb them!].

Change some of the above variables and the SL2's do not give their best - I can only imagine this accounts for much of the negative comment - however set well they are fast, involving, do bass and [cancel my flat earth membership] have a good soundstage.

My honest advice - get a good dealer to allow a good trial of run-in model at home...

My question, why did NAIM build a speaker than takes 6 months to run in???


Regards,

Leopold

6 Months Run-In

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My question, why did NAIM build a speaker than takes 6 months to run in???

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Easy! - all good things come to those who wait patiently.

Enjoy the music; it's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

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Originally posted by Leopold:

I guess I feel a little protective of them as they seemed destined to suffer, on this forum, from the disdain of satisfied SBL users [no disrespect intended].

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Hi Leopold

I use Kabers, they sound pretty darn good but I get the felling that the rest of my kit is getting a it beyond them - 52/Super/135s: I have never owned SBLs, and my comments about the lack of bass sprang from hearing a set last week.

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My honest advice - get a good dealer to allow a good trial of run-in model at home...

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This may well be the course of action to take - but first I am likely to take my Kabers along for an SL2 / Akurate 242 / Kaber comparison..

Regards

Mike


Regards,

Leopold[/QUOTE]

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Leopold,

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed reply. I was particularly interested to see that you are using them 6" out from the wall. The Owners Manual indicates they should be out from the wall somewhere between 4 and 18 inches. I'm guessing that this indicates a couple of things:

a) A bit more adjustability (and compatibility ?) compared to SBLs when it comes to positioning and room tuning.

b) They have more 'inherent' bass than SBLs and therefore a totally solid wall is perhaps less critical.

I've got SBLs either side of a patio window and I think the lack of a totally solid wall behind and, in my case, between the speakers leads to an exageration of an existing character of SBLs to being a little recessed in the upper bass. This makes them rather mid-forward sounding, great apparent speed and detail but lacking a bit of richness and weight.

As for forum opion on the SL2, there is actually a fair bit of discussion to be unearthed in the archives. I would say the main body of opinion is that they are quite a bit better than SBLs in most areas but not sufficient to justify the increase in cost. Then there is a small amount of opinion that says they are not as good as SBLs. And then at the other end of the spectrum there is another opinion that says they are the most refined and coherent speaker Naim have ever produced. Would anyone care to continue the discussion ?

Allan

[This message was edited by Allan Probin on Wed 28 April 2004 at 21:20.]

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Originally posted by mike lacey:

This may well be the course of action to take - but first I am likely to take my Kabers along for an SL2 / Akurate 242 / Kaber comparison..

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I should also mention that I am very impressed by Seventh Veil, as is Tom, and will be keen to give these a go.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.