SL2 and Bass

I wonder what the apparrent mystery of the SL2 is. It could all be a perception thing. I have heard (some time ago now) the SL2's sounding simply terrific, (read: "nothing lacking, and doing everything really, really well"), and have assurances that they (this pair/system) are even better these days. Go figure.

I'm not currently in a position to own a pair, nor do I expect to be for a number of years yet. As such I won't get into discussing the possibilities/permutations... at least some on this thread have actually been there and got the t-shirt. I'd own SL2's in an instant given a lotto win this weekend.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Spot on Rico!

I use active IBL’s and love ‘em to bits. The only speaker that I have heard in recent yeas that I would upgrade to, without hesitation, would be the SL2’s. To my ears the SL2 sounds like a grown up IBL, something the SBL, albeit a good speaker, does not.

I have a long way to go but one day would love to own a pair of SL2’s.

Bob

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You will get a far far better result from 4x 8" drivers than 1or2 16" drivers. Although some may have a 7cm (what's "Hub" in english? Throw?) throw(?) they will certainly make a lot of noise and will shake your room but will be far too slow for your Naim speakers. No chance a speaker that big will be able to keep up with a pair of fast Naims.

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Not true. I agree with James on this. A 16" driver will only be producing bass <100Hz (say) It will typically have no problem whatsoever in producing these 'slow' frequencies as fast as desired. The problem comes with integrating them with the lower midrange driver. It's the phase inaccuracies of the harmonics where the fundamental is produced by the 16"er and harmonics by a 4"er (say) that make them sound slow. If properly designed and integrated the 16"er could give big advantages.

A smaller driver does have the advantage of producing a wider spectrum and this allowing easier integration of low bass, however probems are only moved up the frequency range.

So the "No chance a speaker that big will be able to keep up with a pair of fast Naims" comment is simply not true.

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Originally posted by Alex B.: ... Plus IMHO you need two anyway to make them sound natural and properly integrated. Right next to the mains.

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I'm not convinced about this, Alex. As people probably know, my system comprises 'bass light' full-range speakers (run without filters or crossovers) and matching bass speakers (low-pass filtered at around 120Hz).

I have had to set up the system in many different rooms and with much different equipment and I find that the more I experience, the less I can generalize.

There have certainly been situations where, as you say, two subs sound better and they need to be right next to the mains. However, there have also been times when one sub in the centre or in a corner sound just as good. If a sub suffers from significant distortions or cabinet vibrations, the direction of sound coming from it will become evident. A 'good' sub is far less locatable.

On the other question, integration of the bass (or sub) with the mid-band (or bass) is crucial to the perception of speed in the bass. Subjective speed is also critically dependent on room loading - room boom will often give a sluggish bass. In a similar way, resonances in the sub itself can cause an impression of slowness.

As for size, well I don't know. I tend to favour multiple small drivers myself, but that's because they match the way that I design. I've heard larger single drive-units that also sound very fast. As is so often the case, it's difficult to generalize (IMHO).

As a matter of fact, I like the fact that generalization is tricky and that there are so many exceptions in our industry. It results in a beautiful variety of approaches and allows the crazy, maverick small guys to compete with the Boses and the B & Ws.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

James

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Big drivers tend to have lower resonant frequencies, and as such will reach lower than a similar but smaller driver. Big drivers are also not necessarily slower. It will depend on the motor strength and how much mass it has to move. Bigger drivers couple with the room's air mass far more effectively to produce more natural sounding bass because the air is gently stirred rather than violently agitated

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I agree, in general with this, though
my understanding is that the resonant frequency (ie the lowest bass effectively achievable) for a driver is a function of its mass (including voice coil) and suspension compliance.(setting aside for a moment the effect of the enclosure) Thus the resonant frequency can be made lower by increasing the mass.....scope for increased suspension compliance is limited by mechanical integrity. The tradeoff of course is(for me) the QUALITY of the bass which more or less equates to the transient response. Deep sloppy bass is not something worth having IMHO. Thus several (two) small(8inch) bass drivers can easily be made to go deep by using, say ,large(= massive) voice coils. The extra voice coils (compared to a single1 12 inch driver)and additional magnetic flux achievable would also tend to give superior transient response.Though of course for a single large bass unit one can specify a larger voice coil/bigger magnet to compensate

Hence IMHO, it really is a case of "six of one and half a dozen of the other"...with proper selection of parameters (admittedly not easy if buyig drivers "off the shelf")I can see no reason why two smaller bass drivers cannot do a similar(if not better) job than a single larger one (or have I missed something?)

laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Thu 29 April 2004 at 13:24.]

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Originally posted by Laurie Saunders: ... I can see no reason why two smaller bass drivers cannot do a similar(if not better) job than a single larger one (or have I missed something?)

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As I've said, I think that either approach can be made to work.

One nice thing about using two smaller drivers (not that many designers take this approach) is that they can be mechanically coupled together (for instance magnet to magnet with both drivers firing out). This coupling can go a long way to eliminating driver vibration. The resulting reduction of cabinet vibration can give the twin effects of speeding up the subjective sound of the bass and reducing one's ability to detect the direction of the sub.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

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One nice thing about using two smaller drivers

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another is the narrower baffle size. Apart from asthaetics (which are a matter of personal taste)...this combined with smaller cone diameter is (surely) likely to give better/wider dispersion characteristics...set against any interference effects (standing peaks/troughs)resulting from two coherent sources of waves?

Is this correct?

laurie S

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Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:

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One nice thing about using two smaller drivers

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another is the narrower baffle size. Apart from asthaetics (which are a matter of personal taste)...this combined with smaller cone diameter is (surely) likely to give better/wider dispersion characteristics...set against any interference effects (standing peaks/troughs)resulting from two coherent sources of waves?

Is this correct?

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Broadly yes. A smaller cone will have a wider dispersion pattern at a given frequency. Many pundits also consider a narrower baffle to give better stereo imagery (what's that? )

There are also those experts who believe that the lower frequency of the diffraction step makes wider baffles desirable. AudioNote, Snell and 'Internet guru' Thorsten argue this case.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'two coherent sources of waves'. Did you mean two bass drivers? If so, you don't have to worry about interference effects at these low frequencies. I'm currently working on whether two drivers, separated vertically, actually do a better job of handling the floor to ceiling room mode and thus integrate better into the room. TL speakers, with their driver at the top and port at the bottom, work this way.

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Originally posted by James:
If you are anywhere near a 15-inch driver moving 5-7cm, you'll be deaf. It's all about displacement (you know, cubic inches and all that), and in that respect a 15-inch driver moves as much air as around ten 6-inch drivers for the same excursion.

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Sorry to be pedantic but I believe that it would take approximately 6.25 6" drivers to cause the equivalent deafness of one 15" driver, assuming that you could get 5-7cm excursion. On second thought, go with ten drivers and one course in sign language.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

[This message was edited by 7V on Fri 30 April 2004 at 1:58.]

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Originally posted by James:
I'm not sure how you came up with your numbers but here's how I came up with mine. The ATC SB100-375 SC, which is a variant of the 15-inch woofer used by Naim DBL, has a radiating area of 900 square centimetres. The Scan-speak 15W8530K-00, which has a 6-inch frame, has 95 square centimetres. Is that closer to ten-times difference or 6.25 times?

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Blast. I suspect your measuring techniques are way more sophisticated than mine. I just went for the old-fashioned "PI r squared". Of course that relies on the nominal size being the actual diameter which, I admit, it rarely is.

I believe that it's normal to calculate the diameter of the radiating area of a cone to and from halfway across its surround and I'm sure you've taken the surround into the reckoning.

So I concede. You would indeed need ten of the 6" cones to achieve a similar degree of deafness.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

James

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Low efficiency drivers don't sound as fast and vital as high efficiency ones.

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I agree....sensitivity and easy amplifier load are worth sacrificing a little linearity for IMHO

Some of the most "correct" kit (on paper) often sounds the most uninvolving


Laurie S

Sorry to butt in - this is actually interesting: but I want to read what people think about the SL2s as they are on my upgrade radar right now, along with a couple of others....

Would you mind carrying this bit on in a new thread?

Thanks

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Mike,

there is only one way to find out about the SL2, that is to get a pair home and see how they sound in your own listening room.

Regards


NB

Ps it may be worthwhile reading the first few pages of the Jaw thread, when ihave the SL2's for a few weeks.

There are plenty of comments there from many forum members.

Alex

I am running Kabers. IMO they are a surprisingly capable speaker, but having spoken to both my dealer and Richard Dane, they are identified as pretty much the weak link: upstream I have LP12/Akiva etc, 52/Super/135s.

NB

I have read your post with interest. It does seem that we are of the same view: bass light ( but possibly affected by room? ) but stunning on detail. Everything is a compromise, but am willing to forgo bass for detail?

Linns' Akurate 242, and the Seventh Veil systems deliver both, and remain musical, but at a higher cost.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

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have read your post with interest. It does seem that we are of the same view: bass light ( but possibly affected by room? ) but stunning on detail. Everything is a compromise, but am willing to forgo bass for detail?
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Then seriously consider the SL2's MIke, also consider the Seventh Veil Speakers and Totem's.

All of these are stunning on detail. If you like the presentation but need more bass then there are the NBL's have a stunning amount of detail.


Regards


NB

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Originally posted by NB:
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have read your post with interest. It does seem that we are of the same view: bass light ( but possibly affected by room? ) but stunning on detail. Everything is a compromise, but am willing to forgo bass for detail?
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Then seriously consider the SL2's MIke, also consider the Seventh Veil Speakers and Totem's.

All of these are stunning on detail. If you like the presentation but need more bass then there are the NBL's have a stunning amount of detail.


Regards


NB

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NB

Can the NAP300 drive the NBL well at high volume (10:0 position on Naim pre-amp)?

Mike:

I listened to SL2 with a 300 and decided NOT to change from my active/250 SBLs. It was not even close IMO. Its possible that active SL2s might change my perspective though but I have not heard them this way.

If I were you I would consider used SBLs with which you could then make an incredible improvement by going active with another pair of 135s (etc). Total cost of used 2x135, SBLs, SNAXO/Supercap would be far less than 300/SBLs, I would think.

You could also consider NBLs (though perhaps more difficult to find used). I compared 135s and 300 both passive into NBLs. Here it a question of which presentation you prefer from the amps. The 300 has a wider soundstage, increased detail but is not as "alive" as 135s.
IMO opinion, though, you really need a 500 with NBLs to bring out their best. Active NBLs may be an option too but I have not heard them this way.

Paul

Tuan,

It can drive the Neat Ultimatums well past the 12am on the pre-amp.

Regards


NB

Interesting, I have had SL2’s now for a little over six months!

I tend to try to listen to music on mine. They play base crisp, deep, and low if it is on the recording media (CD/Record/etc.). Yes, the presentation is different to my old Linn speakers-which had loads of “floppy” Isobarik derived bass.

However, they are breathtaking at showing emotion, feeling, and bags of detail. As the rest of you, I thought initially they were bass light; it does take a long time for the SL2’s to “burn-in”-3-6 months on an increasing scale.

I too tried the same pair as NB, these seemed bass light. If you leave them in one place for an extended period without “tinkering” with them, they grow in size from a small attractive speaker into one hell of a window to the insight of the recorded music.

Two other factors I found:

• Room positioning and room size, this must be right as well as the correct dealer based set-up for the room, you can play (tinker), but generally, the dealer tends to know best.

• They equipment driving the SL2’s, CDX2/XPS/82/250 absolute minimum; these are demanding speakers.

If I need equalised bass, I go to my conservatory and listen to my active Meridians, bass yes, detail-well not really!

£5000 for a pair of speakers is a lot of money, if you are looking for a compact speaker that can be used with the best equipment and to keep the wife reasonably happy because of the size and unobtrusiveness; SL2’s are fit for purpose.

Hi Tartarus,

Hows the 252?

Regards


NB

I am still waiting the right time to introduce my wife to the new addition to the family. It’s still with uncle Peter.

My name is taken from lowest region of the world, a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night; it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe; primarily the prison for defeated gods and a place of punishment for sinners-just like my sense of humour!

Tartarus

Thanks for the observations. Genuinely interesting. My initial response is that after six months, I would wonder if it is your ears that have become accustomed to the SL2 bass response, rather than the bass response improving.... I have heard Linns' Akurate 242s, ( Balrog ) bass, detail, musicality there straight away, so it can be done, likewise the Seventh Veil, fantastic sound delivered at Bristol, but via non-Naim kit - monster Wadia CDP. for example.

To be sacriligeously honest, my thoughts right now are inclined towards 242s or Seventh Veil...these deliver on day one...

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

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I would wonder if it is your ears that have become accustomed to the SL2 bass response, rather than the bass response improving....
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Yes your ears become accustomed to a particular sound but when you hear another sistem you can normally hear the difference.

When I had the SL2's I became very accustomed to them but when I listened to my car stereo I could hear how bass light the SL2's were.

Regards


NB

As long as you don't hear what you're missing bass depth is of little immportance to musical enjoyment. My AE1s go down all the way to about 80HZ but cleanly and in tune. That's far better than a low frequency splurge. Nonetheless, once you hear real bass there's no going back.

PS Fredrik, I'm sure the secret to in-home car stereo is to have it battery powered (and an F1 simulation).

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Are you saying that your car stereo is set up more correctly than the SL 2s in you extended dem? My car radio (1989 Volvo with standard four speaker system) is weightier than my SBLs, but I have no doubt which is nearer being right!
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No I am not saying the car set up was better, my hi-fi sistem is considerably better.

What I was trying to say is that you can become accustomed to a particular sound and its not until you hear another sound that you understand the shortcommings of your own sistem.

Saying that the set up in my jeep is very good and carries considerable bass weight. Its also very detailed. I have infinity gold speakers in the jeep and they are excellent. They work well in my car but I don't think they will sound as good in my house.


Regards


NB

Try the SL2's in the car!

Bass=mass volume displacement, therefore you should have more bass-mathematically speaking. A slight problem with passengers though, the SL2’s need to be made at home for some time…!

I have been listening to a Dolby surround sound CD/Hi-FI in a Volvo S60-2003 for a week, heavy solid sound but not really musical.

After an extended period away from my loved ones, read SL2’s, I came back and was amazed with the deep and detailed bass?

Was this to do with: a) psychosomatic influences that I was adjusting too, over a this period? or b) Powergen had fixed the bloody interference with the local LE (read Leicester, UK) sub-station near me?

I cannot explain this fact, but they sound better, and the SCap2/XPS aren’t buzzing like a flock of disgruntled wasps?

PS. When I had my house rewired 10 years ago, when moved in I had 6mmx3 on separate spurs for the hi-fi (2x6 = 12 sockets). I had learnt from 10 years earlier from playing with mains cable does make a difference…