SL2 and Bass

As a Jazz rather than Rock music fan I can agree with Fredrik that there is much more attention given to sound reproduction at Jazz concerts, especially if small groups are involved.
It also the case that quite a lot of Jazz music issued on Vinyl & CD is recorded at live concerts because by it's very nature Jazz is more vital "live".

A comment on the "interference" of Home Theatre with purity in main stereo speakers. It is a definite effect to deal with. If you play some CD music through the main front speakers only and go round the room and feel the cones on the surround speakers you will feel them vibrating in sympathy at a low level even though no signal is driving them.

This must have some effect on the quality of the sound field, though it is very low level at least in mine, because I removed the unused speakers to see the difference.

regards
GEOFF

Alex I said:

quote:

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....and feel the cones on the surround speakers you will feel them vibrating in sympathy at a low level even though no signal is driving them

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You said:

quote:

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I am using a AVR to power my Allaes. Of course 5.1 with 2 Intro MKII and a Axess and you can't hear a thing from any other speaker than the Allaes in stereo mode

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I was referring to speakers that are NOT receiving a signal. What I meant was literally if you touch the cones very gently with your fingers you will feel them vibrating because of the pressure coming from the sound generated by the speakers that ARE playing a signal. It is not about hearing the sound but a low level sympathetic vibration.

In actual fact there are some speaker designs that have passive radiators built into the cabinets to help extend the bass of the spaeker that is being driven. I had a pair like that from Montior Audio some time ago.

Sorry if I was unclear.

Some examples of Jazz concerts that required carefull miking and sound balance were piano trios, such Oscar Petereson, Erroll Garner etc. and quintets with the likes of Cannonball Adderly, Stan Getz and such. An example concert venue that has good sound I find is the Calston Hall in Bristol the UK. The Birmingham arena on the other hand is attrocious. I went to Tina Turner concert in the stadium in Dusseldorf and also attended a concert in Koln at the stadium there. Both were over amplified and completely lacking in sound timing, probably because of stadium designs. There was a distinct delay to the drums for example which came almost as an echo to the main beat.

It is a problem that the size of audience they need to finance some of these concert tours puts them in such totally wrong environments. Unfortunately it is difficult to make enough money out of small intimate theatre's.

regards
GEOFF

Quote:-

and then the best thing you can do is drive your nicely appointed Jeep to a concert Hall, Jazz venue or Pop concert and determine from real sonorities (as opposed to a certain style of replay) what is really real
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Frederik,

You cannot be serious?

I would imagine that every forum member here appreciates the difference between, a live gig, concert or whatever you want to call it, a hi-fi and a car stereo!

Its un-realistic to assume you can recreate a live venue in your living room and to such the hi-fi is a compramise. Once you realise that the purpose of hi-fi is to best suit the listening requirements of the listener.

It's obvious from this discusion and previous discussions we have had that we have completely different musical taste's. If you read the Jaw thread you will see that I have stated the the SL2 is the best speaker for what it does best. Its ability to get into the music and portray the sheer emotion of the music is second to none. I had a great time when I had the SL2 and heard thing I had never heard before,

However, as a long term speaker I couldn't live with the SL2's presentation, it didn't suit my listening tastes. In my quest for MY perfect speaker I listened to the Naim NBL and the Neat Ultinatum 9 and after much deliberation I ended up with the Neat's purely because I prefered their presentation in my listening room.

Now, I have been very careful and never stated that either speaker is better than the other's, they are different and each speaker will suit different people.

Knowing that you like the SL2's presentation, I would highly recommend that You give Steve Margiolis of Seventh Veil a ring and have a home dem of his speakers, I would greatly look forward to reading your report on hearing these speakers.

I didn't read your post as a challenge and I am not going to get drawn into an argument about which is the better speaker or whether Naim do bass, I will however admit that you and I have completely different musical tastes and I look forward to reading more post's from you on the enjoyment you get from your hi-fi.

Your reveiw of the Naim 300 and the Naim SL2 was very enjoyable.


Regards


NB

Frederik,

I think that the SL2's should be on everyone's shortlist for those looking for a speaker in the £5k range. I beleive the SL2's are a wonderful little speaker and deserve all the praise they have received.

Having corresponded with you on a few occasions and having read your post's I beleive they are ideal for you and your listening tastes. I would be very surprised that once you have sorted out the amplificaton if a pair of SL2's don't find a permanent place in your home.

I have spoken to Steve from Seventh Veil both in person and on e-mail and I can tell you that he would welcome the opportunity to bring a pair of his speakers over to your house. Knowing Steve I know he wouldn't think you were wasting his time. He's a wonderful guy that gets great pleasure from hi-fi.

If you would welcome chatting to someone first about the speakers then Tom Alves is the person to speak to. He had a home demonstration of them and speaks very highly of them. He has posted a complete reveiw of them on the Seventh Veil website which is well worth reading.


Regards


NB

I learned the Sl2 to know with dealer demonstrations. It sounded there not better as one can read here in the forum.

17 months ago I bought my own. The Sl2 with 552 and 500 is very expensive. The best possible setup with best possible sound should therefore be found out:
The PXO must be decoupled from the box! One takes a board 9cmx55cm and screws on it the xover. The board stands behind the SL2 on the floor. The xover is so highly screwed on that the naca5 connections to the tweeter and bass sit not tautly. That was not any more than 20 minutes of work.

After a half year I made then still another improvement, which is not to be regarded particularly beautifully. (I do have my own hifiroom and WAF doesn't matter).

Between PXO and the board I attached 500 gram of sand bags. The sand is very fine-grained: 0,002mm - 0,02mm. Thus each gram has a surface of 6 square meter. If the PXO wants to vibrate now, the sand scrub together. With 3000 square meter surface the vibration is nearly completely prevented.

The result astonished me. Nearly everything of the typically hifisound is disappeared. I was never so close to a life concert. And how does it look with the bass?

Up 50 cycles per second I regard the SL2 as the best of the world - below 35 cycles per second for the worst of the world. There is nothing present.

Ulrich

[This message was edited by Ulrich Hohn on Tue 04 May 2004 at 18:32.]

Ulrich -

Always good to hear, er...read from you

"Between PXO and the board I attached 500 gram of sand bags."

I do not understand...the sand is between the PXO and the board? Did you use long screws so the sand bags are directly against the PXO components, held there by the board on the other side?

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Greg,

Yes, the sand is between the PXO and the board.

"Did you use long screws so the sand bags are directly against the PXO component s"

No,
The cover of the PXO was screwed on. Within the PXO were small sand bags distributed.
Then the cover was again bolted on by the PXO.

I put then larger sand bag on the board. Then I put the PXO on the sand bag.
Afterwards I tape everything about 50 times with nylon rope as firmly as possible.
(It is not to be regarded particularly beautifully).

Ulrich

Ulrich -

Thank you for your reply. I loosened the bolts holding the PXO on my Allaes, but had not thought of taking it completely off and then further damping it.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

I have active SBL's and am considering active SL2's. Some would say a sideways move but does the SL2 improve on SBL bass?

Steve

Steve, yes the SL2 improve on SBL bass.
My previous active SBL's were driven by 552/Scap/Snaxo my 500 for bass and a 135 for tweeter.
The bass of my passive 500/SL2 is much better.

Ulrich

Ulrich

Just wondering why you did not go active 500 & 135's with the SL2? If I go for SL2 I would drive them actively with 135's or would you go passive 300 or 500. Was even considering moving up to say active combination of 300 & 135 until funds for 300 fully active.

Thanks
Steve

Steve

The changes to the PXO brought as much improvement that active with Scap,Snaxo,2*300
would be more badly. So I would have to purchase a Scap, Snaxo and a aditional 500.
I heard 14 years active loudspeakers. Nevertheless am I now the view that the sand absorbed PXO
brings me more near to the music.
Admitted - sound is faster actively, however it sounds more hifi.
I do not trust to absorb a Snaxo with sand.

Ulrich

I too have tried (and miserably failed) using a mixture of NAP500 and 135s actively, preferring the full spectrum coherence and dynamic contrasts of a passive 500 system. At the same time I greatly miss the incredibly sweet and vastly more detailed HF performance of when I had the 500 actively driving the DBLs tweeters (using a SC powered Snaxo362). The PXO is lossy for sure, but its losses seem evenly balanced throughout the tonal spectrum.

I will have to try Ulrichs configuration on the PXOs, although I am pretty sure that eventually I will have no choice but the full-monty 3x500.

As I have already sacrificed one metaphorical kidney for a 552 (which I will have tomorrow!), I will not be able to make this move for quite some time. So in the meantime I will try to maximize the PXO.

Ron
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