I'm starting a new thread, because the most recent rack-related thread is now onto its fifth page. If anyone reading this doesn't want to read anything more about equipment racks, you've been fairly warned, and can exit now!
After all the comments about Hutter, I took another look at the Hutter website. To my surprise, Hutter list Naim Audio North America as a Hutter supplier. OK, off went an email to Dave, Chris and Chris asking when we might see these racks actually available to us in the US. The reply: "No plans to carry Hutter at this time."
Ahem. Here we have Naim using Hutter in shows, Paul S announcing that he is installing them in his home, and at least one conference participant saying that Hutter should be considered the "default" rack for Naim. All accompanied by much abuse being heaped upon Mana and those who prosletize in its favor. After all that, and despite Hutter saying that Naim will be selling the racks in the US, we are told that it won't be available here.
I've owned Target. I've owned Base, which was the rack system imported and recommended by Naim USA. I did the comparison, in my living room, switching my CDS back and forth from the Base rack to the Target rack. Base sucked. Took the life right out of the music. I now own Mana, which when properly set up (I know the difference, 'cause I had it set up badly for months!) removed that glare and edge from my system while maintaining the groove. The difference was not subtle. If Hutter is indeed better, I'll be the first in line to try it and keep it. Bring it on!
But in the meantime, take the politics out of the discussion. There's obvious hostility (particularly on Paul Stephenson's part)from Naim toward Mana that has increased over the past year or so -especially since Julian Vereker died. The Mana forum - populated by people who in the vast majority use Naim equipment - can seem like a bar room brawl waiting to happen. Never mind all that. Anyone taking a position on Mana without having heard it properly set up is missing something potentially very helpful and enjoyable.
I have yet to hear anything better. If the Hutter proponents/Mana slaggers want to make their case, they need to figure out a way for Hutter to be available in the US and Canada. Put up or shut up, so to speak.
Jim
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Former member
Argh, posted in wrong thread!
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Top Cat
quote:
anything you can do to have a good time, let's get on and do it, so long as it doesn't cause a murder
- Frank Zappa.
FWIW, I think we are all here in the pursuit of the best sounds, and so frank and open discussions are helpful. I use Mana, but if there is a better product out there then I want to know about it.
(Personally, I doubt whether Hutter would improve upon Mana, but I'm willing to be proved wrong. I've invested too heavily in Mana to want to change now, and the greatest thing about Mana is that you can keep adding stages and refining the sound at each 'step')
At this level, it's all down to personal preference, so can someone who has used either system extensively post the definitive 'for' and 'against' of either system, in terms of sound, appearance, upgradability, price, flexibility, etc.???
John
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Paul Stephenson
"There's obvious hostility (particularly on Paul Stephenson's part)from Naim toward Mana"
My last post on this, I and Naim recommend Mana and several other racks no problem, we have no problem with mana the company. It is posts like yours that foster this so called problem. I think mana racks are great, just, I prefer hutter in my place ok! as for JV he used base, Mt and dg use ash.
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Darren Miller
Just to through a spanner in the works....
I have a Townshend Audio Seismic Sink Stand. This works exceedingly well as my NAIM is situated in an attic room on a suspended wooden floor.
I found that any stand the was coupled to the floor with spikes failed to help the sound of my system. Though when testing on the ground floor the benefits were obvious.
I then experimented with paving slabs and kids bike inner tubes and discovered vast improvements(as read in some HiFi rag some years back). My speakers still sit on these home made devices. I then discovered that Townshend Audio made a stand that worked on an air suspension system. I tested this against various stands(Base, Quadraspire, Target) though I admit not Mana.
It works for me....
I'm going to try hanging it from the roof on bungie chords next...
Darren Miller
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Former member
It's interesting that the people at Naim – who presumably agree on which CD player, amp, etc is best
and have very similar ideas on how music reproduction should sound - should all use different stands in their homes.
To me, the problem with all the forum’s constant eulogising and defaming of stands is that any analysis is largely meaningless without factoring in where that stand is being used. While there are plenty of Naim users with identical equipment and stands, no two rooms are going to be exactly alike. Hence we all have different experiences. I heard Jim’s stuff on Base stands and it didn’t sound as good as it should. But Base sounds great in my (very different) room.
It’s fair enough to make broad generalisations about a stand’s characteristics, but given the almost limitless variations of the stand + room equation, much of the lecturing that goes on here is just a waste of bandwidth in my view.
Jon
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Darren Miller
Jon,
That's exactly my point. As I said in my previous post the Townshend Audio Seismic Sink sounds better in my attic room than the Base stand did. I put this down to the floor being suspended and producing lots of vibration. However when used on the ground floor I could have used the Base as the improvements where dramatic. It just did not work in the room that my system is in.
If I had chosen a stand for the ground floor I would probably have gone with the Quadraspire as I found a slightly more relaxed sound than the Base.
Regards
Darren Miller
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Dev B
Jon wrote>>>
It’s fair enough to make broad generalisations about a stand’s characteristics, but given the almost limitless variations of the stand + room equation, much of the lecturing that goes on here is just a waste of bandwidth in my view.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Also I think there is a lot of compulsive/obsessive type of behaviour going on here. Stands are so boring. 
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Andrew Randle
....and aesthetics.
As I've written in a couple of other posts, I am extremely neutral on this whole issue - because I haven't had the luxury of being able to compare.
However, the attitude of several people, shear lack of manners and obsessiveness are a major turn-off.
I hope this will be my last posting on the issue for a while - otherwise I might turn into you lot! 
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Former member
Darren said:
quote:
I then experimented with paving slabs and kids bike inner tubes and discovered vast improvements (as read in some HiFi rag some years back).
My speakers still sit on these home made devices.
Darren
are your speakers really sitting on such air suspended stands?
From my point of view, that SHOULD ruin the sound - actually I have never tried this, so I might be totally wrong.
I believe that the movement of the woofer (which is a certain mass, moving at a certain speed) is just like an excitement for the speaker (this is not my theory, it's one of the Laws of Dynamics). If the speaker will not move, all the energy of the woofer is used to produce the sound. If the speaker moves (and it certainly will, if sitting on suspended stands) then the sound is ruined because some energy is wasted by the suspension and the woofer is not moving correctly, being the effective movement of the woofer equal to the relative movement woofer/speaker MINUS the movement of the speaker.
On the other hand I think that such suspension could work well for electronics - actually I'm building my new DIY table in a similar way.
By the way, I also have a wooden floor. Like you, I tried paving slabs as well, but didn't like them. Now I have Linn Skeet under spikes, and I'm happy.
So we have different room/system or different tastes 
.
Enjoy your music.
Stefano
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by David Dever
Thanks for the link, nicely well hidden.
D-A-V-I-D D-E-V-E-R, NANA
No relation to John with six fingers on his right hand...
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by David Dever
Jim-
quote:
I've owned Target. I've owned Base, which was the rack system imported and recommended by Naim USA. I did the comparison, in my living room, switching my CDS back and forth from the Base rack to the Target rack. Base sucked. Took the life right out of the music. I now own Mana, which when properly set up (I know the difference, 'cause I had it set up badly for months!) removed that glare and edge from my system while maintaining the groove. The difference was not subtle.
After all of the system changes you've gone through over the last three or four years, do you still feel that you are missing something? Or is it absolutely the best you've ever had it?--if so, try leaving it alone...
For what it's worth, I've moved five times in the last four years myself--each house / apartment / loft + floor + system + power sounded different, each demanding different speakers + setup + racks (and arrangement thereof)--and all requiring an adjustment period before everything locked in.
As far as racks go (or any other system-related accessory, for that matter), what might "take the life out of the music" in one situation might in another alleviate excess energy or fatigue due to room situations. (In my own case, I hate carpet or curtains, generally decorate sparsely and prefer a more "live" room for conversation, perfect for Base--though I'm sure that Hutter has a much higher wife/partner acceptance factor, and sounds good too.)
As always, "your mileage may vary"...some people prefer a Jeep, others an Alfa Romeo (just don't blame the Alfa for being a lousy off-road vehicle). As far as I know, NANA has imported at least five different brands of racks, which are, in general, expensive to ship from the U.K. relative to their anticipated purchase price. Each brand was good at something, though not perfect for all situations.
Dave Dever, NANA
[This message was edited by David Dever, NANA on FRIDAY 10 November 2000 at 06:40.]
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by jimlevitt
My system now is the best that I have ever had. But I thrashed around for so many years trying to get things to sound decent, I think I'm stuck in the "search" mode. Always prowling for something better...
So when people whose views and experience I respect start to rave about something, I'm inclined to want to try it out, if it's available. I gave Mana a try based on what I'd read here on the Naim conference, and I'm glad I did. Some things I've tried have worked in my system, others haven't. I go into all these experiments with a hard-earned "your mileage may vary" attitude.
And you, Dave, have been one of the most thoughtful and reliable sources of help and information when I've had questions. Sorry if I yanked your chain at the beginning of this thread.
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Darren Miller
Stefano,
I agree with your reasoning and was suprised that the idea worked. I found that the mass of the paving slab makes a huge difference to the sound as does the weight of the speakers. The greater the mass of the slab/speakers the the less the movement and the better the sound. Also beware that if you fully inflate the tube the movement increases (I don't know why). Therefore I only half inflate.
If anyone can explain why this works I would love to know. I just experiment with ideas without any scientific reasoning.
All I know is if it sounds better I'll use it.
Regards
Darren Miller
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Former member
quote:
Also beware that if you fully inflate the
tube the movement increases (I don't know why). Therefore I only half inflate.
The reason could be the resonance frequency of the system.
In a static system movement depends on the magnitude of force, but in a dynamic system movement also depend on the frequency at which the force is applied (e.g.: the windows in a bus are generally moving more intensely when the engine is at idle speed, rather than at full speed).
Let's say that system A (paving slab + speaker + 10 psi inflated tube) has a resonance frequency Fa, while system B (paving slab + speaker + 5 psi inflated tube) has resonance frequency Fb.
Maybe the frequencies at which the woofer is moving is very close to Fa, and that could explain why the movement is bigger with the fully inflated tube, although when you push the speaker with your fingers (static system) the movement is small.
Hope this helps. Sorry if I bored you or said obvious things.
Assuming that air-suspended speakers sound better, I can't explain why. Maybe the reduction of airborne and floor vibration has a greater effect on overall sound rather than the energy dissipation of the woofer movement caused by the suspension, I don't know. On an intuitive basis, the latter effect should be greater the the former.
Once again, if it sounds good then it is good.
Stefano
