Censorship on the forum

I think it a very fine line between "censorship" and editing what appears to be an attempt at salesmanship. In this case I do not have a problem with Paul S removing the posts in question, especially the photo posted, I believe, by Vuk.

While it is wonderful to talk about free speech, this is a forum owned and operated by Naim. They are therefore free to edit as they wish; anyone offended by this is welcome to not participate. Naim Audio is, to my knowledge, a for profit corporation and for Naim to take steps to protect a significant investment they have made seems only prudent.

Cheers,

Bob

After the snidey personal abuse tf was hurling around last night I'm surprised he's not been banned outright forever - you had to read it to believe it.

Now I've been quite vocal with my opinions in the past myself and I realise now just how silly it must look to people reading it - sincere apologies to Vuk on that one BTW - I learned a lesson there - it is very VERY easy to sit and vent your spleen by typing - dangerously easy.

I get depressed when I read about people like tf saying he gets more out of a sansui cassette player now than he ever did with his Naim gear,
I feel sorry for the guys who are downgrading because they don't think it's worth the expense or time any more - I bloody do!!! and I fully intend to keep on going until I can safely say - THAT is the best bloody thing I have ever heard in my sodding life - period!!!

I mean - what else is there?

A nice new cooker ferf....sake?

Regards P.

[This message was edited by Pierre on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 10:22.]

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With regards to TF trying to sell us Epona, I didn't see any evidence of it at all and I don't think it's fair to accuse of him this (especially when one has removed the so-called evidence).

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This seems circular to me.

* Naim delete a post.

* Someone asks why and Naim states why.

* You cry foul because the evidence as to why - the post - is gone.

What are they supposed to do - leave the post UP so you can see why it should be deleted?

Maybe this isn't what you meant, but it does sound kinda funny.

Hope all is well up north

- GregB
Music, not sound

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Did you ever think his posts and attitude towards our products were not linked with his motives to sell his products.

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On the Mana forum tf says:

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Insofar as the Naim forum. I posted about seven posts on Sunday to the Naim forum. One post was suggesting careful re-placement of equipment in the room with regard to getting better performance from SBLs (no Mana reference at all), a post on the ARO tonearm (extolling its vitues over the Ekos, again no Mana reference there), suggesting someone might choose to listen to an Audio Note CD3 if they were not happy with their CDX (again no Mana reference)

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Did you delete these mailings? If so why?

Tf got pretty rude and personal in some of his comments. I do not condone this but I understand it. On the face of it I think your behaviour is unacceptable. I think your company makes great products, but when you behave like a schoolyard bully I think it is time for me to vote with my fingers and leave the forum. For all those who take the spirit of free speech so lightly - I hope you never have to live in a society without it.

Signing off

Nic P

Who will keep my moderation habits in check?

"Did you delete these mailings? If so why?"

Now you want more, c'mon Gre-Grenville as we say here at the office! I did delete them, you did not read them sorry and you have to take my word, it was a job well done!

[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 11:32.]

Absolutely no problem with this, just a small minority with a hidden agenda.

Free speech is a good thing however some members within this forum are exhibiting rather obsessive and persistent mailing on their "pet topics". Big yawn I say.

I'm even tempted to lampoon the Mana debate by launching an even more contentious thread. See my postings on "Top Tip" to get a brief hint of what could come...

Regarding endorsements - there must be a certain amount of discretion in judging between blatent publicity/market sniping and enthusiastic support. This is indeed a difficult task for Paul Stephensen - he has a business to run and does not wish to find that the forum is siphoning off customers.

To date, there has been no censorship of any non-Naim products that I have said "hits the mark". In fact Naim would probably finds these kinds of opinions from the general membership as valuable market research.

I've learnt a lot of additional info about the kit that I'm buying. The forum also acts as a means of problem solving and conversing with intelligent people.

So let's not spoil it by pretending the situation is something it isn't.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

"This makes no sense ... tf sells plug compatible Naim power supplies. He therefore sells to Naim customers, usually a Naim customer who is upgrading. Any negative comments about Naim harm his business. Any encouragement of downgrading harms his business. So how can his comments be interpreted as commercially motivated."

Nic,

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that you truly meant the above comment. the PSU that TF was promoting on the Naim forum was blatantly a plug compatible alternative to a Hicap.

So, Mr X checks into the forum for a bit of friendly advise on upgrading his 72, 140. Most forum contributors would probably suggest checking out a Hicap, but TF could quite likely start to extol the virtues of his alternative PSU.

Hmmmm, I think this could be easily taken as marketing.

Bob

Nic,

Sorry, just reread your piece about TF & realized that I had got the wrong end of the stick about what TF had said.

Even though my previous comments were out of context with your contribution & still think they are valid.

Bo

[This message was edited by bob atherton on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 11:54.]

Even if they were not copies, *any* manufacturer of audio goods coming here should understand the need to tread lightly and have the decorum to do so.

- GregB
What's in a Naim?

Do everyone a favour and qualify your findings - references please!

"The studied bored approach is one I generally feel is best left to immature teenagers. Apologies if you happen to be one."

Go on Neil, give us a kiss.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Forget all the emotion

we(well actually Naim )have two options, to delete or not.

There are arguments for and arguments against.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Look at this forum and then look at the uncensored Mana forum....I know which I prefer.

If this forum ever got like the other one, it would be sick jokes,personal abuse, four lettered words with a little bit of hifi lurking in the background. Discussions would center around :-

I f---g hate you, I hate your f----g product so go f------k yourself.

I would hate to do a moderators job, he can't please us all, but no moderator = Mana style debate.

I rest my case.

Mick.. P Stephenson...I apologise in advance for using f---g to illustrate my point and I also hope that 7 different people will not E mail me direct to question the validity of my parents state of wedlock as happened on the Mana forum when I told them off for swearing too much.

Looks like the Americans aren't just satisfied with one election.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Vuk gets to sit on a Mana table with the spikes upwards when he starts talking about MANA again.

The Pony Pornographer gets to spend a weekend in a gay health farm whenever he says less boxes and more stands.

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If this forum ever got like the other one, it would be sick jokes,personal abuse...

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Mick,

Did you see what Joel was saying about your camera recently... the phrase "rejected 1932 tractor design" was in there somewhere. Time to check out the Padded Cell me thinks.

Tony.

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Did you see what Joel was saying about your camera recently... the phrase "rejected 1932 tractor design" was in there somewhere. Time to check out the Padded Cell me thinks

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It's lovely and warm in there... pass me the dog food

Hey, in Joel's defense, the best cameras remain those based upon the film formats of yesteryear (e.g. 120 and 5x4 sheet film), so maybe that's a veiled compliment.

As for Vuk, TF and the 'other barred Manaphile' - I've never met Vuk, but know him from the other forum and he's always got an interesting point to make (whether you believe it or not) and we should give him credit for having the guts to stand up and admit his prejudice chez supports and his subsequent conversion.

TF and 'the other' (the born again Christian)? Met them both, and they're great guys. They both believe passionately in the music first, and have taken the bold step against the popular flow. Sure, maybe some people take offense to this perceived outspoken evangelism, but I have respect for those guys and know that they're only 'preaching' because they believe in the power of supports and want everyone to benefit. Hell, if I were green to the whole issue, I'd be pleased that someone was willing to stick their neck out to at least raise my awareness that "maybe, just maybe, they have a point".

Anyway, Naim make great kit and Mana make great stands. Other manufacturers also make great kit too; it's all about personal tastes. Hutter probably make great sounding stands too. Surely the point of any hifi forum is to raise awareness of the possibilities and perhaps benefit from the collected experiences of others?

Just a few thoughts; slainte!

John

Um, I hear ya.

But...

...if another manufacturer posts here, they do so *at their own risk*. Naim could delete it, leave it, poke fun at it, whatever. Whey do they need to be consistent about this? So their competition will know what to expect if they post here?

I know it sounds like I'm taking the other side, and I am against censorship in general. However, there seems to be something of a war going on here and all is fair...

I would say 'battle', but this has been going on for a *long* time, is disruptive to the forum, and is getting o l d. Perhaps when the new management of $$$a take over this nonsense will stop.

Long live musi :

- GregB
What's in a Naim?

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No so that the general forum goers can have some degree of confidence that the forum is really pretty open.

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The forum is open and the deletion of tf's posts should not come as a surprise. The pic of his kit is still up, BTW.

And does Naim have to feel that tf and his home-brew boxes represent serious competition in order to delete content about it? This is an assumption on your part, which you follow up with an unsubstantiated, rude remark about the conflict being personal between tf and Paul S. There is a long history of inappropriate posts by tf on the old forum. Don't forget history.

- GregB
Music, not sound

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I am sure it's great and all that but it is getting a bit repetitive. Anybody else agree?

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I agree with you - but don't think Paul s. had to delete these posts.

Omer,

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Omer (dreaming of tuning her).

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I understand you so well, not only Haifa is the most beatiful city in Israel, it is a well known fact that the most beatiful women in Israel are living here....

Arie

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Nic Is this good bye for ever?

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For ever is a long time, but certainly for now. Your treatment of TF does not appear to me to reflect well on you or your company, and you have not said anything that convinces me that you have not gone well beyond what is widely regarded as acceptable conduct for a moderator on an Internet moderated forum.

Would you be willing to rethink your position as regards TF's mailings? I know that some of his comments have been rude to you personally, but I feel that he is a person of integrity who should be heard on the forum and can be trusted to keep his word not to market his power supplies.

I will certainly miss actively participating in the forum and wish all its contributors well.

As a final comment before leaving, I believe that when acting as a censor you should leave a visible title and author's name with the body showing clearly that you have deleted the message - hidden censorship can appear very sinister.

Nic P