Censorship on the forum
Posted by: Nic Peeling on 06 November 2000
quote:On the Mana forum tf says that numerous of his postings on the Naim forum have been deleted, including many that are nothing to do with Mana.
(I'm expecting this to be censored along with all my other posts).
Can I ask Paul S if this is true?
I have great respect for tf's mailings, and with the one exception many, many months ago on the old forum where I felt he was advertising his Epona, Naim plug-compatible power supplies, I have never seen anything he has posted that I have felt warranted censorship. Even on Mana I have found his views of great interest and his descent down the downgrading path is fascinating (even though I doubt I will follow that route myself).
I understand that Naim pays for this forum, but censorship goes so against the grain of the Internet that I for one do not want to participate in a forum where there is significant, invisible censorship (it was much harder to hide censorship on the old threaded forum).
I seek clarification from Naim.
Nic P
I think it a very fine line between "censorship" and editing what appears to be an attempt at salesmanship. In this case I do not have a problem with Paul S removing the posts in question, especially the photo posted, I believe, by Vuk.
While it is wonderful to talk about free speech, this is a forum owned and operated by Naim. They are therefore free to edit as they wish; anyone offended by this is welcome to not participate. Naim Audio is, to my knowledge, a for profit corporation and for Naim to take steps to protect a significant investment they have made seems only prudent.
Cheers,
Bob
After the snidey personal abuse tf was hurling around last night I'm surprised he's not been banned outright forever - you had to read it to believe it.
Now I've been quite vocal with my opinions in the past myself and I realise now just how silly it must look to people reading it - sincere apologies to Vuk on that one BTW - I learned a lesson there - it is very VERY easy to sit and vent your spleen by typing - dangerously easy.
I get depressed when I read about people like tf saying he gets more out of a sansui cassette player now than he ever did with his Naim gear,
I feel sorry for the guys who are downgrading because they don't think it's worth the expense or time any more - I bloody do!!! and I fully intend to keep on going until I can safely say - THAT is the best bloody thing I have ever heard in my sodding life - period!!!
I mean - what else is there?
A nice new cooker ferf....sake?
Regards P.
[This message was edited by Pierre on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 10:22.]
As for the unpleasantness of the semi-nude photo, all you Americans and Brits who are "offended" should realise that the rest of the world is not so (hypo)critical. In the meantime, enjoy your nomination for a Pink Triangle Snappy.
Vuk.
quote:
With regards to TF trying to sell us Epona, I didn't see any evidence of it at all and I don't think it's fair to accuse of him this (especially when one has removed the so-called evidence).
This seems circular to me.
* Naim delete a post.
* Someone asks why and Naim states why.
* You cry foul because the evidence as to why - the post - is gone.
What are they supposed to do - leave the post UP so you can see why it should be deleted?
Maybe this isn't what you meant, but it does sound kinda funny.
Hope all is well up north
- GregB
Music, not sound
quote:
You cry foul because the evidence as to why - the post - is gone.
No. I saw the postings last night and it did not appear to me that TF was trying to promote any products that he was selling.
Just trying to be fair to everyone.
Vuk.
If by this you mean this forum then I am increasingly inclined to agree with you. Time was when Naim seemed to have sufficient confidence in its products to ignore people suggesting that forum members try alternative products when those individuals had specifically asked for such advice. Sadly those days seem long gone and censorship is king. As Nic said, it is easier to hide this in this unthreaded forum too. Perhaps it is no coincidence that the often promised improvements to the forum (in particular threading) remain vapourware.
To whoever is trying to resurrect the old style forum as an unofficial meeting place I hope you succeed soon. Then we can have some open debate again.
Regards
Neil
quote:
While it is wonderful to talk about free speech, this is a forum owned and operated by Naim. They are therefore free to edit as they wish; anyone offended by this is welcome to not participate.
Spot on Bob ! Couldn't agree more. 
Now drop this waste of bandwidth I would say. Makes my new posts list unnecessary long... 
Richard.
quote:This makes no sense ... tf sells plug compatible Naim power supplies. He therfore sells to Naim customers, usually a Naim customer who is upgrading. Any negative comments about Naim harm his business. Any encouragement of downgrading harms his business. So how can his comments be interpreted as commercially motivated.
Did you ever think his posts and attitude towards our products were not linked with his motives to sell his products.
On the Mana forum tf says:
quote:
Insofar as the Naim forum. I posted about seven posts on Sunday to the Naim forum. One post was suggesting careful re-placement of equipment in the room with regard to getting better performance from SBLs (no Mana reference at all), a post on the ARO tonearm (extolling its vitues over the Ekos, again no Mana reference there), suggesting someone might choose to listen to an Audio Note CD3 if they were not happy with their CDX (again no Mana reference)
Did you delete these mailings? If so why?
Tf got pretty rude and personal in some of his comments. I do not condone this but I understand it. On the face of it I think your behaviour is unacceptable. I think your company makes great products, but when you behave like a schoolyard bully I think it is time for me to vote with my fingers and leave the forum. For all those who take the spirit of free speech so lightly - I hope you never have to live in a society without it.
Signing off
Nic P
quote:
While it is wonderful to talk about free speech, this is a forum owned and operated by Naim. They are therefore free to edit as they wish; anyone offended by this is welcome to not participate.
You hi-fi folks really have to learn something about the internet...
The point is not that this forum is owned by Naim, so they can do what they want (how about editing your posts?).
The point is, that it is a moderated forum which - obviously - is the contrary to an unmoderated forum. And that simply means that there is somebody supervising what is posted. Moderated forums (or newsgroups) are not new, this classification has existed since the very beginning of newsnet.
And because everybody agreed to this conditions when sining in, theres no point in getting upset once the confirmed regurarities kick in.
See the difference? I hope so.
Fabian
You can't escape spam ... but (at) <---> @ might require a bigger tin opener ...
Who will keep my moderation habits in check?
"Did you delete these mailings? If so why?"
Now you want more, c'mon Gre-Grenville as we say here at the office! I did delete them, you did not read them sorry and you have to take my word, it was a job well done!
[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 11:32.]
Absolutely no problem with this, just a small minority with a hidden agenda.
Free speech is a good thing however some members within this forum are exhibiting rather obsessive and persistent mailing on their "pet topics". Big yawn I say.
I'm even tempted to lampoon the Mana debate by launching an even more contentious thread. See my postings on "Top Tip" to get a brief hint of what could come...
Regarding endorsements - there must be a certain amount of discretion in judging between blatent publicity/market sniping and enthusiastic support. This is indeed a difficult task for Paul Stephensen - he has a business to run and does not wish to find that the forum is siphoning off customers.
To date, there has been no censorship of any non-Naim products that I have said "hits the mark". In fact Naim would probably finds these kinds of opinions from the general membership as valuable market research.
I've learnt a lot of additional info about the kit that I'm buying. The forum also acts as a means of problem solving and conversing with intelligent people.
So let's not spoil it by pretending the situation is something it isn't.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
"This makes no sense ... tf sells plug compatible Naim power supplies. He therefore sells to Naim customers, usually a Naim customer who is upgrading. Any negative comments about Naim harm his business. Any encouragement of downgrading harms his business. So how can his comments be interpreted as commercially motivated."
Nic,
I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that you truly meant the above comment. the PSU that TF was promoting on the Naim forum was blatantly a plug compatible alternative to a Hicap.
So, Mr X checks into the forum for a bit of friendly advise on upgrading his 72, 140. Most forum contributors would probably suggest checking out a Hicap, but TF could quite likely start to extol the virtues of his alternative PSU.
Hmmmm, I think this could be easily taken as marketing.
Bob
Nic,
Sorry, just reread your piece about TF & realized that I had got the wrong end of the stick about what TF had said.
Even though my previous comments were out of context with your contribution & still think they are valid.
Bo
[This message was edited by bob atherton on TUESDAY 07 November 2000 at 11:54.]
But tf has never suggested anyone on the forum buy one of his supplies - that would be clearly wrong, and if that were to happen censorship would be justified. How can advice on, for example, speaker placement warrant such censorship??
dozy.
"To date, there has been no censorship of any non-Naim products that I have said "hits the mark"."
How do you know Andrew?
I certainly had one of my posts taken out when an entire thread was "censored" on the old forum.
One of the key advantages of the old forum's threading was that when someone stepped beyond some reasonable line there were loads of people who could directly respond and frequently hammered the miscreant. I have done this on a number of occasions to TF, Ian Wright and Vuk amongst several (just in case there are some people out there who think I am always in favour of what these guys say). It therefore very rarely really required moderation.
On the subject of boredom I have found many of your posts dull and uninteresting. However, I feel no need to continuously rail against them as you do against some of the issues discussed here. I generally just choose not to respond. The studied bored approach is one I generally feel is best left to immature teenagers. Apologies if you happen to be one.
Regards
Ne
Even if they were not copies, *any* manufacturer of audio goods coming here should understand the need to tread lightly and have the decorum to do so.
- GregB
What's in a Naim?
Do everyone a favour and qualify your findings - references please!
"The studied bored approach is one I generally feel is best left to immature teenagers. Apologies if you happen to be one."
Go on Neil, give us a kiss.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Forget all the emotion
we(well actually Naim )have two options, to delete or not.
There are arguments for and arguments against.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Look at this forum and then look at the uncensored Mana forum....I know which I prefer.
If this forum ever got like the other one, it would be sick jokes,personal abuse, four lettered words with a little bit of hifi lurking in the background. Discussions would center around :-
I f---g hate you, I hate your f----g product so go f------k yourself.
I would hate to do a moderators job, he can't please us all, but no moderator = Mana style debate.
I rest my case.
Mick.. P Stephenson...I apologise in advance for using f---g to illustrate my point and I also hope that 7 different people will not E mail me direct to question the validity of my parents state of wedlock as happened on the Mana forum when I told them off for swearing too much.
Looks like the Americans aren't just satisfied with one election.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Vuk gets to sit on a Mana table with the spikes upwards when he starts talking about MANA again.
The Pony Pornographer gets to spend a weekend in a gay health farm whenever he says less boxes and more stands.
quote:
If this forum ever got like the other one, it would be sick jokes,personal abuse...
Mick,
Did you see what Joel was saying about your camera recently... the phrase "rejected 1932 tractor design" was in there somewhere. Time to check out the Padded Cell me thinks.
Tony.
Z.
(going back to lurk)