Censorship on the forum

"It is Rather Obvious to Me... ...that Naim is well within bounds for deleting from their forum pictures of products that are copies of Naim's own design.

Even if they were not copies, *any* manufacturer of audio goods coming here should understand the need to tread lightly and have the decorum to do so."

Greg,
If this were the case and it was being applied consistently I could understand it. However, an image that would offend under these criteria has been left on by the forum moderator (who has definately seen it as he has commented with a remark that is presumably intended to be sarcastic). The difference being that said image was posted by Vuk. Where is the consistency?

For Andrew Randle:

Despite the fact that this is the closer offer to sex I have had all week I suspect you are not my type (unless you happen to be Michelle Pfeiffer going incognito in which case yes please).

General:

Is consistency and openess too much to ask for? In the past there have been promises from Paul about publishing clear guidelines on what is acceptable. These do not appear to have been put into the forum header. There have also been suggestions that where it has been deemed necessary to remove a post that only the contents would be removed and an insert from the forum moderator posted explaining why. Again not followed up on.

None of these points seem unreasonable requests yet they have not been followed through on. Why not?

If most contributors are happy with a forum that purports to be open but has this undercurrent of censorship (i.e. Naim determine what you should be allowed to see) of what appears to be certain individuals then that is fine. You deserve everything you get.

Regards

Neil

Regards

Neil

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Did you see what Joel was saying about your camera recently... the phrase "rejected 1932 tractor design" was in there somewhere. Time to check out the Padded Cell me thinks

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It's lovely and warm in there... pass me the dog food

Hey, in Joel's defense, the best cameras remain those based upon the film formats of yesteryear (e.g. 120 and 5x4 sheet film), so maybe that's a veiled compliment.

As for Vuk, TF and the 'other barred Manaphile' - I've never met Vuk, but know him from the other forum and he's always got an interesting point to make (whether you believe it or not) and we should give him credit for having the guts to stand up and admit his prejudice chez supports and his subsequent conversion.

TF and 'the other' (the born again Christian)? Met them both, and they're great guys. They both believe passionately in the music first, and have taken the bold step against the popular flow. Sure, maybe some people take offense to this perceived outspoken evangelism, but I have respect for those guys and know that they're only 'preaching' because they believe in the power of supports and want everyone to benefit. Hell, if I were green to the whole issue, I'd be pleased that someone was willing to stick their neck out to at least raise my awareness that "maybe, just maybe, they have a point".

Anyway, Naim make great kit and Mana make great stands. Other manufacturers also make great kit too; it's all about personal tastes. Hutter probably make great sounding stands too. Surely the point of any hifi forum is to raise awareness of the possibilities and perhaps benefit from the collected experiences of others?

Just a few thoughts; slainte!

John

When I read "antiques" in your header, I thought you were going to take a poke at Neil for the Michelle Pfeiffer comment. Neil, c'mon man, she's old news! How about this one instead:

I am sure Omer would agree.

Vuk.

P.S. I did not "convert" or change my mind about racks, I simply found a very good one.

On the other hand I doubt I'd climb over this vision to get to Andrew Randle.

Regards

Neil

Um, I hear ya.

But...

...if another manufacturer posts here, they do so *at their own risk*. Naim could delete it, leave it, poke fun at it, whatever. Whey do they need to be consistent about this? So their competition will know what to expect if they post here?

I know it sounds like I'm taking the other side, and I am against censorship in general. However, there seems to be something of a war going on here and all is fair...

I would say 'battle', but this has been going on for a *long* time, is disruptive to the forum, and is getting o l d. Perhaps when the new management of $$$a take over this nonsense will stop.

Long live musi :

- GregB
What's in a Naim?

"Whey do they need to be consistent about this? So their competition will know what to expect if they post here?"

No so that the general forum goers can have some degree of confidence that the forum is really pretty open.

By the way I cannot believe that Naim truly feel that TF represents competition. They would be far better looking over their shoulders at things like home theatre systems than at a chap who makes an alternative to a product of theirs that surely only represents a small fraction of their sales/turnover/profit (delete as appropriate) and supplies it mail order to boot. It would be a bit like an elephant worrying that a fly might steal its bed for the night! (No offence to small scale manufacturers the world over). This seems to be something that has become personal between our esteemed moderator and TF. If that is the case then this is definately against the general netiquette of moderation. (Sorry Paul but your note requesting a supply teacher for netiquette issues after Nic left escaped my attention for a while there.

Regards

Nei

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No so that the general forum goers can have some degree of confidence that the forum is really pretty open.

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The forum is open and the deletion of tf's posts should not come as a surprise. The pic of his kit is still up, BTW.

And does Naim have to feel that tf and his home-brew boxes represent serious competition in order to delete content about it? This is an assumption on your part, which you follow up with an unsubstantiated, rude remark about the conflict being personal between tf and Paul S. There is a long history of inappropriate posts by tf on the old forum. Don't forget history.

- GregB
Music, not sound

Don't you think she must be standing on a Mana - note the clarity and frequency extremes.

Omer (dreaming of tuning her).

"The forum is open and the deletion of tf's posts should not come as a surprise. The pic of his kit is still up, BTW."

Actually if you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that I said it was still up and wondered if this had anything to do with the fact it was posted by Vuk and not TF. Given Vuk has "stormed out" of the new forum once before after having a post of his deleted and the fact that there were very vociferous calls for him to come back it seems no coincidence that this has been left on. After all it is not his system (it's TF's) and it does show far more "foreign" products than Naim ones.

"And does Naim have to feel that tf and his home-brew boxes represent serious competition in order to delete content about it?"

I believe but may be wrong that some of the messages contained content praising Naim gear (the ARO) with no reference to anything that TF might be making.

"This is an assumption on your part, which you follow up with an unsubstantiated, rude remark about the conflict being personal between tf and Paul S."

Please actually read the post. I said that the behaviour has the appearance of something personal between the two of them. TF certainly made a few personal remarks about Paul which Vuk has rightly condemned. However the deleteions of some of his posts has not been satisfactorily explained. Just saying it's Naims forum and they can do what they want is fine but then you accept that you can only see the world through the spectacles they choose to let you. That is not an open forum.

"There is a long history of inappropriate posts by tf on the old forum. Don't forget history."

I'm not. If my memory is correct there was only one post on the old forum that TF did that mentioned his kit. This was in direct response to someone who had posted about what he makes and would in certain circles come under the heading of right to reply. I did think that some of it was inappropriate at the time but I do not recall any other instances.

Come on Greg at least do me the courtesy of reading what I write and acknowledging the points rather than just automatically leaping to defend Paul. I notice you decline to comment on my suggestions for deleted posts and the failure of Naim to put the posting guidelines cleraly at the top of the forum.

Regards

Ne

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I am sure it's great and all that but it is getting a bit repetitive. Anybody else agree?

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I agree with you - but don't think Paul s. had to delete these posts.

Omer,

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Omer (dreaming of tuning her).

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I understand you so well, not only Haifa is the most beatiful city in Israel, it is a well known fact that the most beatiful women in Israel are living here....

Arie

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not only Haifa is the most beatiful city in Israel, it is a well known fact that the most beatiful women in Israel are living here

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Another shatterred myth. Best polish cooks maybe . That is, if you ever make it to the meal before falling asleep...

Best, Omer.

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Nic Is this good bye for ever?

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For ever is a long time, but certainly for now. Your treatment of TF does not appear to me to reflect well on you or your company, and you have not said anything that convinces me that you have not gone well beyond what is widely regarded as acceptable conduct for a moderator on an Internet moderated forum.

Would you be willing to rethink your position as regards TF's mailings? I know that some of his comments have been rude to you personally, but I feel that he is a person of integrity who should be heard on the forum and can be trusted to keep his word not to market his power supplies.

I will certainly miss actively participating in the forum and wish all its contributors well.

As a final comment before leaving, I believe that when acting as a censor you should leave a visible title and author's name with the body showing clearly that you have deleted the message - hidden censorship can appear very sinister.

Nic P