To DVD or not to DVD?

Posted by: Jonathan Gorse on 12 December 2000

With Christmas coming I have negotiated the purchase of a DVD player and am now faced with dilemma of which one -

Because of the emergence of DVD-A and DVD RW in the near future I am aiming to buy at the lower end of the market - say under £299. To that cost I will need to add a processor and plan to use a spare pair of Linn Kan's as rears to get me going. The sub will have to wait until funds allow but is likely to something from REL (I borrowed and quite liked a Storm III a while ago)
TV is a 3 year old Sony with 29" conventional 4/3 screen.

We do tend to buy music (concert and documentary) on VHS at present as well as movies which seems a waste - hence our move into DVD

One key criteria is that the addition of A/V should still allow me to use the NAC102/NAP180 to drive my SBL's at the front. A dealer once told me that what I needed was a Yamaha 492 which I gather has been replaced by the Yamaha DSPA5 which allowed just that, presumably at the expense of complex level balancing being required!

So the questions:

What DVD player would you recommend?
What processor would you recommend?
Should I just scrap the whole idea and buy a record cleaner instead?

Thanks in anticipateion of informed response from the A/V gurus out there.

Jonathan
CDI/Gyro/RB600/DV17D2/102/180/Hicap/SBL

Posted on: 12 December 2000 by Rico
Jonathon

sorry to disappoint, as I'm no guru - here's a quick brain dump on DVD from my POV. I slung a Pioneer 636 under me arm, took it home, and plugged it in. It does what I ask of it beautifully (Movies on a 20" FST TV, sounds in stereo through the system, future application in a dedicated AV system). You'll be able to find a multi-regioned one circa £360, although I think after a 5-gold stars rating in WHF (saw it at the hairdressers, ok?) cool the price might have risen in the stores a bit. That rating was an added bonus for me - I didn't check a mag or ask an opinion when it came time to buy - if I sell it, I guess. Pioneer have also just replaced the 525 with a new model (somewhere around £200, IIRC), perhaps the 535 (?) which is likely a good bet. 717's are being phased out at good prices as there's a new model replacing that too. There's a Sony model circa 636 price said to be pretty good too (748? These numbers are so damn confusing! Oh yeah, that's like a baby 916 Ducati - D'Oh!).

You need to decide if you require a built-in decoder, and descrete outputs. Number of scart outputs, and do you need S-VHS output. I take it you're not going to use it as a music source, and you certainly won't need a fab support for it (although it might look kinda cool atop your atr-deco cake-decorating stand)... if not an issue, you can go for 525 equivalent and save some £££ for movies.

I was warned I might get monochrome output for Region 1 with my TV as a 'feature of the multi-mod', but switching output mode to PAL sorted that. PAL60 capabilty on your TV is a necessity if you're a-gonna-watcha Region 1 disks.

I'm sure there are many better ways to evaluate, negotiate, and buy your DVD player - I just don't have that experience. The What HiFi test had some good info for a complete punter like myself, and was better balanced than most of the dedicated DVD comix I've perused in [WH Smiths] errrr 'the Library'. Let us know how you get on!

Rico - musichead

Posted on: 12 December 2000 by Martin M
A few DVD tips:

1. Get a multi-region one - Techtonics (www.techtronics.co.uk for info) do superb Pioneer multi-region players. The modification is reversible so no problems with the guarantee. Also Techtonics are cheap and give good service. My multi-region Pioneer plays all the tricky disc's (e.g Region 1 The Matrix) with no problem. In fact the Techtronics ones are guaranteed to do so. I doubt if the Tesco Wharfedale etc are. Also remember the region coding is being modified to make it more hardy to region-free modifications. Techtronics Pioneer players are guaranteed on these new discs too.

2. Use either the S-Video or RGB outputs from the DVD player. RGB is theorectically better but the implementation sometimes sucks - hello Philips!

3. If your TV can take pure NTSC, use it. The DVD players transcoders are generally pretty bad.

4 If you have a 4:3 tv with a (up till now) seemingly useless 16:9 button, use the player in'widescreen' mode and let the TV compress it down to 4:3. This looks a bit better with Region 2 discs and hugely better with NTSC Region 1 discs.

5. Make friends with Play 247! www.play247.com. Region discs for £18 delivered with no customs hassles (they are based in Jersey). They take orders over the phone if you adverse to on-line shopping.

6. Enjoy!


Heh, Rico! You got that Little Feat CD Box Set yet? Or even the Little Feat Live in 1976 DVD yet!! Order now for Christmas....

Posted on: 12 December 2000 by Martin M
Well Dolby Digital runs at about 196 kbit/s and DTS at about 560 kbit/s. Both compressed obviously. PCM laserdisc sound is PCM to the same standard as CD. That may explain the difference. Or are you saying that Dolby Digital or DTS laserdiscs (i.e US ones) sound better than their DVD equivalents. That would be odd.
Posted on: 12 December 2000 by Paul Stephenson
"and with no time delay it"
The Av1 does have time delay it is just not variable. Also has a digital processor but this does not conform to any standard other than the NAIM SFX 4 channel surround. True it has limitations but lets keep the facts straight, sounds pretty amazing and on music too, how many decoders do that,err not many, not heard one yet!
Posted on: 13 December 2000 by Frank Abela
Jonathan

As to wiring it up, drive the amp as a processor and slave off of it to the 102 at a preset setting. Usually we set up the thing so that we simply turn the Naim amp to 12 o'clock and set the processor amp as the master. Works reasonably well. You'll need a 2RCA->DIN from Chord Co to connect it. When you want to play your CD player, you just use the Naim amp. When you want DVD with surround sound, you slave off.

My experience with 'music' DVDs is limited so take this with a pinch of proverbial salt. I've tried older opera DVDs and their PCM tracks leave much to be desired. It may be that more modern versions with decent mastering are cracking, but I wouldn't expect something like .

However, your problem remains that, with DVD, the quality of your preamp is going to be that of the processor amp effectively (since the 102 is going to be better) so I wonder whether this is going to be for you.

Your plan for going with a cheapish player and DSP-A5 is OK if you wish. Yamaha make a processor amp called the E-800. This is a better bet. It's a higher quality processor and 3-channel amp, thus taking care of just the surround channels. It's got a MUCH better preamp and it costs similar money to the DSP-A5. Oh - and the E-800's the real spiritual successor to the DSP-E492. I would definitely go for the 800 over the A5. You will get better fidelity. Here's a few tips:

If you want to use the player as a CD player as well (you don't mention a CD player in your system list), then buy a decent one for which we're talking £600 upwards in the form of Rotel or Nakamichi. The new Arcam Diva DV88 (£900) is a very creditable CD player in its own right. Buy a 2RCA->DIN Chord cable to play it directly into the 102, and use the optical connection to your surround processor for the full surround option. The DV88 is also DVD-A upgradeable when the boards become available.

If you only want to use the DVD player for movies/surround music, then stick with your cheapish player idea. I'd wait for the sales when some deals will be out if I were you. As to DVD-RW, we've not really heard anything about this happening in the short term and I still wonder about this TiVo business. I'm convinced that's going to be the future in recording off-air.

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 13 December 2000 by Arun Mehan
All of the DVD players at the entry-level SHOULD be better than VHS so you will notice the difference immediately assuming you will be using S-video or better. I can't even watch VHS anymore. So with that in mind, you'll notice the picture more than the sound. Okay, instead of trying to modify your Naim setup to become an AV system, just listen to your DVDs in stereo and even that is better than VHS.

If at a later time you think you're missing out on all the DTS, 5.1, THX or 7.1 sound info, look into either following Frank Abela's advice or setting up a separate AV system with a dedicated receiver while leaving your Naim for music.

Don't know too much about the multiregion players, but it's all over the internet. I have the new Toshiba SD-1600 (Region 1 of course) and I think that is also available in the multiregion format on the net. Just use a search engine. I was worried about multiregion capability but since I am in Region 1 and I didn't want to buy the unit over the internet, I just bought an original unit from a local store. As a bonus, I was treated with three free DVDs as a mail-in offer -- not bad at all.

Posted on: 13 December 2000 by Top Cat
Hi.

Read this thread with interest; one of the things that stopped me buying a Naim pre/power during my upgrade around a year ago was the availability of the DAVE module for the Arcam 10 integrated amp. Used as a preamp, coupled to a matching 10 power amp, it has a pretty impressive, musical sound - not as fast as Naim kit, but with a grip on the music and quite a lot of detail. On its own, the 10 integrated amp wasn't anything particularly special (for a £1000 integrated) but in pre-power, it is a great buy.

Why do I mention this? Well, the 10 is a modular amp and the DAVE module gives DTS/DD as an add-on to the regular amp - to date, the best AV I've heard (i.e. plenty of grunt and grip with accurate decoding and great sound steering), without having to sacrifice the regular audio reproduction.

This is slightly OT, but I've had the odd person ask about my unusual choice of amplification over the past few months, and thought I'd better explain.

What's really exciting for me is that the 10 series amps seem completely transformed when placed on Mana (more so than any component I've yet come across) and so you can indeed have your cake and eat it, for a little over £2000 for the pre and power combo (including DAVE upgrade).

John

Posted on: 13 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
Thanks for the great response - very helpful as ever.

Im quite taken with the Pioneer DVD636 but am unsure whether this is a better bet than the DV717 which used to sell for a lot more but is being discontinued as Rico says - they're both available for around £350 - views on which is best?

I'm pretty certain that I will go for the Yamaha DSP800E (yes these model numbers are a nightmare!!) for around £249 Thus the NAP180 will drive the Sybill's and I can use the Yamaha for the rear's. Probably won't go for a centre channel immediately.

Subwoofer if I decide to go the whole hog will be an REL Storm III.

The trouble with all this is I've started wondering about projectors and motorised screens which is where the really big money starts! Don't think I can quite justify that yet - especially when I may be able to borrow a 'lite-pro' from work on long term loan!

Will keep you posted on what I do - may wait for the Xmas sales! Also want to ensure that I can manage with my existing 4/3 telly for a while and it won't be a waste.

Have to say that even for someone well versed in all this the whole thing is a minefield - my Granny would end up completely confused!!

Take care,

Jonathan

Posted on: 13 December 2000 by Willem van Gemert
What about buying a Playstation 2? Plays DVD's, is inside the price range you mentioned and you have a good excuse to play a game from time to time!

Ciao!

Willem

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by Martin M
Similar in quality. Make sure you get a good multi-region version - that will make far more difference to how much much you'll enjoy the player as you'll have more films available to enjoy. Also my tip on using 'widescreen' mode even on your 4:3 telly will make more difference than that between the two players you mention.Techtronics will sell you the 636 complete with multi-region modification for £300. Spend the rest on discs, some beer and a good video cable.

PS In case you are wondering I have no affiliations with Techtronics - just myself and friends have bought players from them.

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
Martin,

Thanks for the help. I was struggling to find the DV636 for less than £380 and you're right Techtronics have it for £297 + VAT -so thank-you.

Now if another 2 people are prepared to come in with me we can get it for £287 + VAT!

Re: leads I presume that I should look at Chord? Although Techtronics seem to do IXOS. Does it make much difference?

Jonathan

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by Martin M
Chord Co. are good ones. The 'deluxe' Lektropaks are worth a go, if you want to spend less. Personally, I don't think it makes too much difference. Having said that, I haven't got the player wired to the hi-fi.

I recommend you get a good lint free anti-static cloth to give your TV screen a damn good clean. Also get the THX video set-up tests. They are available free with the US Region 1 versions of Toy Story 1&2, or Terminator 2 _ Ultimate Edition. Both £17.99 from Play 247. Cleaning and setting up your TV properly makes a big difference. All obvious stuff I know, but it costs nothing to be thorough!!

Which documentary discs are you going to buy?

[This message was edited by Martin M on THURSDAY 14 December 2000 at 13:08.]

[This message was edited by Martin M on THURSDAY 14 December 2000 at 17:28.]

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
Well thanks to recommendations I have now purchased a Pioneer 636 DVD from Techtronics for around £345 incl VAT which semed a fair deal.

Akin the chap I spoke with there seemed to think that the Sony 940 decoder would be a good bet at around £400 as well but this is rather more than I wanted to spend and I was still pretty keen to stick with Yamaha and had planned to take Frank's advice having tracked down the Yamaha DSP800 for around £249.

I have also spotted the Sony STRDB930 (last year's £500 processor) at £299 which seems attractive even though I won't be using it to drive the Sybill's at the front.

Key question - which is best - Sony STRB930 or Yamaha DSPE800? The Sony has more power (90w p/ch compared to around 65 on the Yamaha)

Just to clarify my Frank CD music source is Naim CDi - I will add it to my profile.

Martin - I haven't given much thought to which documentaries I will buy but I have ben collecting the Beatles Anthology videos and stuff on aviation and cars as well as blockbuster movies. James Taylor live and the Corrs at the Albert Hall will probably be early purchases.

One final thing everybody suggests 247 is the place to buy DVD's yet they are more expensive than some of the US web mail order outlets so why do you all go there? Just curious.

Thanks for all the help - hoping I can get the show on the road in time for my parents visiting over Christmas - they love movies so it will be a real treat for them to get the cinema effect at home.

On a seperate issue I had NTL upgrade my analogue cable TV to digital cable today and the quality has gone from poor to the equal of my terrestrial aerial - if any of you are still using analogue cable ditch it for digital it offers better picture and sound.

Jonathan
(Whose lounge is filling up with lack boxes fast!)

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by Martin M
The price of buying DVDs direct from the US can seem lower, but postage & packing per disc is high unless you buy a big pile of discs. Once you've bought the big pile of discs and import it, the Customs & Excise man gets interested. The combination of the two normally wipes out the advantages. If you do want to buy Stateside Ken Cranes is good www.kencranes.com . Also, I can't be arsed to be honest. I've also found that buying from Play is cheaper than buying the same disc while on holiday from places like Tower and Saturday Matinee.

PS The Classic Albums documentaries are worth a go, as is the Little Feat live DVD if your are into them.

Posted on: 14 December 2000 by P
Yup - I'll drink to that one.

Don't miss - The Making of Aja or even the 2vN "Plush Jazz Rock Stereo Party"

Merry Xmas

P.

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
As mentioned before I have already bought the Pioneer DV636.

One dealer in Guildford has indicated they don't feel a Yamaha DSP 800 will produce enough power to provide a decent front to back sound balance compared to the 102/180. Rear speakers will be Mk1 Kan's initially. The implication was I'd have to spend considerably more (over £1000) on a processor to resolve this.

Does anyone use a DSP 800 - is it OK - I note FRank thinks highly of it and am more inclined to believe him than this dealer.

I am auditioning the Yamaha at Audio T in Camberley tomorrow but don't want to waste everyone's time.

How does the Yamaha compare with things like the Sony 940 and 930 surround amps which aren't much more?

Thanks,

Jonathan

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Richard Sedgemore
Jonathan

I have a similar system to yourself 72/HICAP/180 and recently brought a Yamaha DSP800E processor to drive a set of rear IBL's, and sounds great with plenty off power and bass to the rear channels. I wish I had brought one ages ago.

I do not have a centre speaker, but the Yamaha has an option to simulate this speaker using the main left and right speakers. I have no intention to buy a centre speaker or sub because the Naim amp produces more than enough bass and sets up a good enough sound stage so that voices appear to come from the TV.

The only thing I don't like is the speaker binding posts which will tape Naim or Linn bare cable but not 4mm plugs.

Regards

Richard

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
Yes - I was talking with Sevenoaks - their pricing was quite good on this stuff but unfortunately I found myself doubting the advice.

Pleased to hear that the Yamaha is up to the job in your view Richard - I must admit I feel quite optimistic about it. I am coming to the view that buying the Yamaha would be a sensible point to stop and see how I get on before eventually going for the REL. I have a definate hankering for the serious balls those subwoofers provide but may try and resist the temptation yet again!!

Jonathan - you are indeed just up the road so we should get together sometime over a bottle of wine - let's take that offline and see what we can arrange after the Christmas rush is out of the way.

All the advice is much appreciated - the forum is a very powerful tool - something to do with 'the brains of the many out-thinking the brain of the one'!

Jonathan

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Top Cat
quote:
I have a definate hankering for the serious balls those subwoofers provide but may try and resist the temptation yet again!!

I can definitely recommend the higher-end RELs - Russ Andrews HiFI in Edinburgh have a mark I Studio for sale for £1800 IIRC - now, *that* would just about cream your cracker, bass wise.

The key thing with RELs is (if you're planning to integrate them into a music system) to take the gain down so that you suddenly aren't aware of them. With careful placement and tuning, there is a point at which it all comes together and you have a system with serious scale without perceivably altering the speed of the system. Seems to work better with standmounted speakers IME. Two identical subs work better than one; they 'even out' any discrepancies in in-room frequency response; I use a pair of Mk I Stentors, on which I have the gain set to 2/10 (yes, that low) and they kick ass.

I've contemplated selling one of my Stentors, though, for around the £650 mark (not including carriage - this would cost around £50 as these buggers are *heavy*!!!) - any takers? I could really use the cash to buy more Mana or a new CD player (CD5+Epona, here I come ;-)

John

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Edwin
I have done a bit of DVD price comparisons. The cheapest are here in Canada, either www.futureshop.ca or absound.ca. Typical prices are Can$25-30 including taxes (UKP11-13).

A&B sounds CD prices are about as cheap as you will find anywhere. Chart CDs are typically Can $16 including taxes (about UKP7).

What price are CDs in the UK these days? They were about UKP 12 when I emigrated in '92.

Posted on: 15 December 2000 by Edwin
I have done a bit of DVD price comparisons. The cheapest are here in Canada, either www.futureshop.ca or absound.ca. Typical prices are Can$25-30 including taxes (UKP11-13).

A&B sounds CD prices are about as cheap as you will find anywhere. Chart CDs are typically Can $16 including taxes (about UKP7).

What price are CDs in the UK these days? They were about UKP 12 when I emigrated in '92.

Posted on: 18 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
I am as you are aware progressing with setting up my a/v system and am wondering how best to connect an REL sub if I decide to splash out.

For a/v the sub will obviously run off the Yamaha processor's dolby digital sub output. If I want the option to use the REL to augment the SBL's for purely musical use on two channel is this possible?

Obviously one option might be to connect the sub using both low and high level inputs - disconnecting whichever isn't required at the time.

Would having the high level cable soldered into the NAP180 speaker plugs but not connected at the sub end cause any significant loading issues or sound degradation?

Is there a better way of doing things? It's just if I'm going to spend significant dosh on a sub I would like to be able to use it for music and a/v.

Thank in advance,

Jonathan