To DVD or not to DVD?
Posted by: Jonathan Gorse on 12 December 2000
Because of the emergence of DVD-A and DVD RW in the near future I am aiming to buy at the lower end of the market - say under £299. To that cost I will need to add a processor and plan to use a spare pair of Linn Kan's as rears to get me going. The sub will have to wait until funds allow but is likely to something from REL (I borrowed and quite liked a Storm III a while ago)
TV is a 3 year old Sony with 29" conventional 4/3 screen.
We do tend to buy music (concert and documentary) on VHS at present as well as movies which seems a waste - hence our move into DVD
One key criteria is that the addition of A/V should still allow me to use the NAC102/NAP180 to drive my SBL's at the front. A dealer once told me that what I needed was a Yamaha 492 which I gather has been replaced by the Yamaha DSPA5 which allowed just that, presumably at the expense of complex level balancing being required!
So the questions:
What DVD player would you recommend?
What processor would you recommend?
Should I just scrap the whole idea and buy a record cleaner instead?
Thanks in anticipateion of informed response from the A/V gurus out there.
Jonathan
CDI/Gyro/RB600/DV17D2/102/180/Hicap/SBL
sorry to disappoint, as I'm no guru - here's a quick brain dump on DVD from my POV. I slung a Pioneer 636 under me arm, took it home, and plugged it in. It does what I ask of it beautifully (Movies on a 20" FST TV, sounds in stereo through the system, future application in a dedicated AV system). You'll be able to find a multi-regioned one circa £360, although I think after a 5-gold stars rating in WHF (saw it at the hairdressers, ok?) 
the price might have risen in the stores a bit. That rating was an added bonus for me - I didn't check a mag or ask an opinion when it came time to buy - if I sell it, I guess. Pioneer have also just replaced the 525 with a new model (somewhere around £200, IIRC), perhaps the 535 (?) which is likely a good bet. 717's are being phased out at good prices as there's a new model replacing that too. There's a Sony model circa 636 price said to be pretty good too (748? These numbers are so damn confusing! Oh yeah, that's like a baby 916 Ducati - D'Oh!).
You need to decide if you require a built-in decoder, and descrete outputs. Number of scart outputs, and do you need S-VHS output. I take it you're not going to use it as a music source, and you certainly won't need a fab support for it (although it might look kinda cool atop your atr-deco cake-decorating stand)... if not an issue, you can go for 525 equivalent and save some £££ for movies.
I was warned I might get monochrome output for Region 1 with my TV as a 'feature of the multi-mod', but switching output mode to PAL sorted that. PAL60 capabilty on your TV is a necessity if you're a-gonna-watcha Region 1 disks.
I'm sure there are many better ways to evaluate, negotiate, and buy your DVD player - I just don't have that experience. The What HiFi test had some good info for a complete punter like myself, and was better balanced than most of the dedicated DVD comix I've perused in [WH Smiths] errrr 'the Library'. Let us know how you get on!
Rico - musichead
1. Get a multi-region one - Techtonics (www.techtronics.co.uk for info) do superb Pioneer multi-region players. The modification is reversible so no problems with the guarantee. Also Techtonics are cheap and give good service. My multi-region Pioneer plays all the tricky disc's (e.g Region 1 The Matrix) with no problem. In fact the Techtronics ones are guaranteed to do so. I doubt if the Tesco Wharfedale etc are. Also remember the region coding is being modified to make it more hardy to region-free modifications. Techtronics Pioneer players are guaranteed on these new discs too.
2. Use either the S-Video or RGB outputs from the DVD player. RGB is theorectically better but the implementation sometimes sucks - hello Philips!
3. If your TV can take pure NTSC, use it. The DVD players transcoders are generally pretty bad.
4 If you have a 4:3 tv with a (up till now) seemingly useless 16:9 button, use the player in'widescreen' mode and let the TV compress it down to 4:3. This looks a bit better with Region 2 discs and hugely better with NTSC Region 1 discs.
5. Make friends with Play 247! www.play247.com. Region discs for £18 delivered with no customs hassles (they are based in Jersey). They take orders over the phone if you adverse to on-line shopping.
6. Enjoy!
Heh, Rico! You got that Little Feat CD Box Set yet? Or even the Little Feat Live in 1976 DVD yet!! Order now for Christmas....
If your going to integrate the hi-fi using the 180 to drive the SBL,s then whats going to drive the rears and centre?
Integrating the hi-fi is easy provided the surround processor has built in power amps and in your case a line out for all channels to attach your own amps.Used to use an Onkiyo unit that did just that.Can,t remember the model no but buying second hand it falls well within your budget.
Any DVD player will do if you just want region 2.If you want to watch the imported stuff than a dual region or non chipped player can be bought but expect to pay extra.
Warning...............
NOT ALL PLAYERS PLAY ALL FILMS.
I know they should but they don.t.A good check but not full proof is if it,ll play the movie the Matrix you may be okay.Any problems take the dam thing straight back.There have been so many upgrades to the chips of the cheaper players its not a joke anymore.
I had a Stentor 1 so it was not really up to job when mating it to the rest of the kit as theres no facility for line input from the effects channel.Make sure the Storm has otherwise set the processor up for large speakers up front and run the sub from them.
You,ll need a purpose built interconnect to run from processor to pre-amp as I,ve never come across anyone using the same plugs as Naim.
FWIW the new generation of DVD players incorporating progressive scan and using the new superduper generation of chips are capable when converted to RGB output of stunning picture.Sound is still not as good as laser disc.Buggered if I know why as a DVD processes the info at a much higher bit rate.
The top knobs at Naim reckon they,ll be bringing out a replacement for the gastly thing they had.I wondered when as they are about the only serious hi-fi company not to have one.The AV1 or what ever was not truely a processor in the sense of 5.1 or 7.1 or DTS or AC3 and with no time delay it was pretty much useless in trying to setup.If I may say a Victorian Folly in the truest sense.
I know they can do better and I hope it will be card driven like all the other serious boys(check out the Meriden 861).
Hope this helps and hope Naim produce something that blows us all away.
In anticipation hooch
The Av1 does have time delay it is just not variable. Also has a digital processor but this does not conform to any standard other than the NAIM SFX 4 channel surround. True it has limitations but lets keep the facts straight, sounds pretty amazing and on music too, how many decoders do that,err not many, not heard one yet!
As to wiring it up, drive the amp as a processor and slave off of it to the 102 at a preset setting. Usually we set up the thing so that we simply turn the Naim amp to 12 o'clock and set the processor amp as the master. Works reasonably well. You'll need a 2RCA->DIN from Chord Co to connect it. When you want to play your CD player, you just use the Naim amp. When you want DVD with surround sound, you slave off.
My experience with 'music' DVDs is limited so take this with a pinch of proverbial salt. I've tried older opera DVDs and their PCM tracks leave much to be desired. It may be that more modern versions with decent mastering are cracking, but I wouldn't expect something like .
However, your problem remains that, with DVD, the quality of your preamp is going to be that of the processor amp effectively (since the 102 is going to be better) so I wonder whether this is going to be for you.
Your plan for going with a cheapish player and DSP-A5 is OK if you wish. Yamaha make a processor amp called the E-800. This is a better bet. It's a higher quality processor and 3-channel amp, thus taking care of just the surround channels. It's got a MUCH better preamp and it costs similar money to the DSP-A5. Oh - and the E-800's the real spiritual successor to the DSP-E492. I would definitely go for the 800 over the A5. You will get better fidelity. Here's a few tips:
If you want to use the player as a CD player as well (you don't mention a CD player in your system list), then buy a decent one for which we're talking £600 upwards in the form of Rotel or Nakamichi. The new Arcam Diva DV88 (£900) is a very creditable CD player in its own right. Buy a 2RCA->DIN Chord cable to play it directly into the 102, and use the optical connection to your surround processor for the full surround option. The DV88 is also DVD-A upgradeable when the boards become available.
If you only want to use the DVD player for movies/surround music, then stick with your cheapish player idea. I'd wait for the sales when some deals will be out if I were you. As to DVD-RW, we've not really heard anything about this happening in the short term and I still wonder about this TiVo business. I'm convinced that's going to be the future in recording off-air.
Regards,
Frank.
"f you want to use the player as a CD player as well (you don't mention a CD player in your system list), then buy a decent one for which we're talking £600 upwards in the form of Rotel or Nakamichi. The new Arcam Diva DV88 (£900) is avery creditable CD player in its own right. Buy a 2RCA->DIN Chord cable to play it directly into the 102, and use the optical connection to your surround processor for the full surround option. The DV88 is also DVD-A upgradeable when theboards become available."
I found the Rotel very difficult to listen to playing CDs. The Arcam however, did a very good job. Also compared it to some well respected CD only boxes and it stood up well. So much so that I am buying one to give me a one box solution. If I had more space and more spare cash I would probably go for an expensive CD player as well but that can wait.
Ian
My mistake in not stating the encoding of the laser dics and DVD,s.As you correctly guessed the encoding was NTSC.
Being a bit of a movie buff I have some 400 NTSC laserdiscs and have compared most of them to their American DVD counterparts.
Pal should look better as there are more scan lines used but I never found any that were better than NTSC and because of the space used by PAL you were limited to PMC on the sound track.
I,ve found that whatever the DVD format be it AC3 or DTS it just dosn,t sound as good and in most cases is worse by a lot.A good example is Alien 1 in AC3.The DVD version has a significant amount of sound missing and what there is left is pretty poor.5th Element looks better than laser disc but just dosen,t have it when it comes to the sound.Check out the blue singing Diva bit.
Players used are
Pioneer CLD97 Elite Reference laser disc player
Pioneer CLD99 Elite Reference laser disc player
Pioneer DV09 Elite Reference DVD player
Pioneer DV37 Elite
DTS has come along in leaps and bounds on the DVD format especially those movies produced by Dreamworks.I,ve often wondered if it was just down to mastering techniques which have steadily improved.
Sorry to bore you hooch
Your format I do concede as being unique.
I,ve been waiting for about 5 years for you guys to bring out a mainstream unit to better the Levensons,krells and casablanca,s.I know you guys can do it.Please can we have one thats card driven so that upgrades are related to changing boards rather than having to buy an updated box.
In anticipation hooch
If at a later time you think you're missing out on all the DTS, 5.1, THX or 7.1 sound info, look into either following Frank Abela's advice or setting up a separate AV system with a dedicated receiver while leaving your Naim for music.
Don't know too much about the multiregion players, but it's all over the internet. I have the new Toshiba SD-1600 (Region 1 of course) and I think that is also available in the multiregion format on the net. Just use a search engine. I was worried about multiregion capability but since I am in Region 1 and I didn't want to buy the unit over the internet, I just bought an original unit from a local store. As a bonus, I was treated with three free DVDs as a mail-in offer -- not bad at all.
Read this thread with interest; one of the things that stopped me buying a Naim pre/power during my upgrade around a year ago was the availability of the DAVE module for the Arcam 10 integrated amp. Used as a preamp, coupled to a matching 10 power amp, it has a pretty impressive, musical sound - not as fast as Naim kit, but with a grip on the music and quite a lot of detail. On its own, the 10 integrated amp wasn't anything particularly special (for a £1000 integrated) but in pre-power, it is a great buy.
Why do I mention this? Well, the 10 is a modular amp and the DAVE module gives DTS/DD as an add-on to the regular amp - to date, the best AV I've heard (i.e. plenty of grunt and grip with accurate decoding and great sound steering), without having to sacrifice the regular audio reproduction.
This is slightly OT, but I've had the odd person ask about my unusual choice of amplification over the past few months, and thought I'd better explain.
What's really exciting for me is that the 10 series amps seem completely transformed when placed on Mana (more so than any component I've yet come across) and so you can indeed have your cake and eat it, for a little over £2000 for the pre and power combo (including DAVE upgrade).
John
Im quite taken with the Pioneer DVD636 but am unsure whether this is a better bet than the DV717 which used to sell for a lot more but is being discontinued as Rico says - they're both available for around £350 - views on which is best?
I'm pretty certain that I will go for the Yamaha DSP800E (yes these model numbers are a nightmare!!) for around £249 Thus the NAP180 will drive the Sybill's and I can use the Yamaha for the rear's. Probably won't go for a centre channel immediately.
Subwoofer if I decide to go the whole hog will be an REL Storm III.
The trouble with all this is I've started wondering about projectors and motorised screens which is where the really big money starts! Don't think I can quite justify that yet - especially when I may be able to borrow a 'lite-pro' from work on long term loan!
Will keep you posted on what I do - may wait for the Xmas sales! Also want to ensure that I can manage with my existing 4/3 telly for a while and it won't be a waste.
Have to say that even for someone well versed in all this the whole thing is a minefield - my Granny would end up completely confused!!
Take care,
Jonathan
Ciao!
Willem
PS In case you are wondering I have no affiliations with Techtronics - just myself and friends have bought players from them.
Thanks for the help. I was struggling to find the DV636 for less than £380 and you're right Techtronics have it for £297 + VAT -so thank-you.
Now if another 2 people are prepared to come in with me we can get it for £287 + VAT!
Re: leads I presume that I should look at Chord? Although Techtronics seem to do IXOS. Does it make much difference?
Jonathan
I recommend you get a good lint free anti-static cloth to give your TV screen a damn good clean. Also get the THX video set-up tests. They are available free with the US Region 1 versions of Toy Story 1&2, or Terminator 2 _ Ultimate Edition. Both £17.99 from Play 247. Cleaning and setting up your TV properly makes a big difference. All obvious stuff I know, but it costs nothing to be thorough!!
Which documentary discs are you going to buy?
[This message was edited by Martin M on THURSDAY 14 December 2000 at 13:08.]
[This message was edited by Martin M on THURSDAY 14 December 2000 at 17:28.]
Akin the chap I spoke with there seemed to think that the Sony 940 decoder would be a good bet at around £400 as well but this is rather more than I wanted to spend and I was still pretty keen to stick with Yamaha and had planned to take Frank's advice having tracked down the Yamaha DSP800 for around £249.
I have also spotted the Sony STRDB930 (last year's £500 processor) at £299 which seems attractive even though I won't be using it to drive the Sybill's at the front.
Key question - which is best - Sony STRB930 or Yamaha DSPE800? The Sony has more power (90w p/ch compared to around 65 on the Yamaha)
Just to clarify my Frank CD music source is Naim CDi - I will add it to my profile.
Martin - I haven't given much thought to which documentaries I will buy but I have ben collecting the Beatles Anthology videos and stuff on aviation and cars as well as blockbuster movies. James Taylor live and the Corrs at the Albert Hall will probably be early purchases.
One final thing everybody suggests 247 is the place to buy DVD's yet they are more expensive than some of the US web mail order outlets so why do you all go there? Just curious.
Thanks for all the help - hoping I can get the show on the road in time for my parents visiting over Christmas - they love movies so it will be a real treat for them to get the cinema effect at home.
On a seperate issue I had NTL upgrade my analogue cable TV to digital cable today and the quality has gone from poor to the equal of my terrestrial aerial - if any of you are still using analogue cable ditch it for digital it offers better picture and sound.
Jonathan
(Whose lounge is filling up with lack boxes fast!)
PS The Classic Albums documentaries are worth a go, as is the Little Feat live DVD if your are into them.
Don't miss - The Making of Aja or even the 2vN "Plush Jazz Rock Stereo Party"
Merry Xmas
P.
One dealer in Guildford has indicated they don't feel a Yamaha DSP 800 will produce enough power to provide a decent front to back sound balance compared to the 102/180. Rear speakers will be Mk1 Kan's initially. The implication was I'd have to spend considerably more (over £1000) on a processor to resolve this.
Does anyone use a DSP 800 - is it OK - I note FRank thinks highly of it and am more inclined to believe him than this dealer.
I am auditioning the Yamaha at Audio T in Camberley tomorrow but don't want to waste everyone's time.
How does the Yamaha compare with things like the Sony 940 and 930 surround amps which aren't much more?
Thanks,
Jonathan
As quid pro quo, a useful link before choosing which Region you want a DVD from is Rewind
If the dealer in Guildford was Sevenoaks, I don't blame you. If it was PJ Hi-Fi, I have found them to be quite good - but haven't used them over much. I don't know about Camberley, but Audio-T in both Basingstoke and Chandlers-Ford I have found to give good advice.
I was looking at a similar problem to you recently (but eventually decided not to go down that route yet) and decided that a processor with no power amps to which you can pick a suitable power amp for the rear / centre etc sounded like the best bet.
After some very hurried listening I decided the only way to go would be to build a separate AV system - which means I need to either scrap my spare bedroom or move house, so didn't take it any further, sorry. If you don't get anywhere with the Yammaha - drop me a note and I can give you a run-down on the things I did listen too.
Cheers
Jonathan
(PS If you are in The Guildford / Camberley area - we could do this over some coffee / vino / listening - I'm down the road in Alton)
I have a similar system to yourself 72/HICAP/180 and recently brought a Yamaha DSP800E processor to drive a set of rear IBL's, and sounds great with plenty off power and bass to the rear channels. I wish I had brought one ages ago.
I do not have a centre speaker, but the Yamaha has an option to simulate this speaker using the main left and right speakers. I have no intention to buy a centre speaker or sub because the Naim amp produces more than enough bass and sets up a good enough sound stage so that voices appear to come from the TV.
The only thing I don't like is the speaker binding posts which will tape Naim or Linn bare cable but not 4mm plugs.
Regards
Richard
Pleased to hear that the Yamaha is up to the job in your view Richard - I must admit I feel quite optimistic about it. I am coming to the view that buying the Yamaha would be a sensible point to stop and see how I get on before eventually going for the REL. I have a definate hankering for the serious balls those subwoofers provide but may try and resist the temptation yet again!!
Jonathan - you are indeed just up the road so we should get together sometime over a bottle of wine - let's take that offline and see what we can arrange after the Christmas rush is out of the way.
All the advice is much appreciated - the forum is a very powerful tool - something to do with 'the brains of the many out-thinking the brain of the one'!
Jonathan
quote:
I have a definate hankering for the serious balls those subwoofers provide but may try and resist the temptation yet again!!
I can definitely recommend the higher-end RELs - Russ Andrews HiFI in Edinburgh have a mark I Studio for sale for £1800 IIRC - now, *that* would just about cream your cracker, bass wise.
The key thing with RELs is (if you're planning to integrate them into a music system) to take the gain down so that you suddenly aren't aware of them. With careful placement and tuning, there is a point at which it all comes together and you have a system with serious scale without perceivably altering the speed of the system. Seems to work better with standmounted speakers IME. Two identical subs work better than one; they 'even out' any discrepancies in in-room frequency response; I use a pair of Mk I Stentors, on which I have the gain set to 2/10 (yes, that low) and they kick ass.
I've contemplated selling one of my Stentors, though, for around the £650 mark (not including carriage - this would cost around £50 as these buggers are *heavy*!!!) - any takers? I could really use the cash to buy more Mana or a new CD player (CD5+Epona, here I come ;-)
John