Thank God the UN are looking after the people of Dafur.

This is, unfortunately, why so many people in the US are dismissive of the UN, and why the Republicans get a lot of mileage sneering at Kerry for his support of multilateralism. Having said that, the UN (ineffectual as it is) is the last weak band-aid over the crumbling international order. If it goes the way of the League of Nations, a truly dark age awaits.

Oh god, Steve, I thought the thread title was serious, not sarcastic!

Fool that I am.

Well, last I heard on this story is the rumour that the Sudanese government is acting in hoc with the Janjiweed, despite its strenuous attempts to deny it.

However, I guess if it proves to be the case, what realistically can the UN do?

Regards,

JonR

That's the question, JonR.

Surely there's something between UN inertia and full-scale US invasion.

BTW, I apologize for my sarcasm but I'm afraid the UN brings it out in me.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

quote:

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Originally posted by 7V:
BTW, I apologize for my sarcasm but I'm afraid the UN brings it out in me.

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Understood. In any case let's face it the UN do not exactly have a shall we say 'inspiring' track record, do they? The Balkans comes to mind as a less than shining example.

I suppose it could also be argued that had they been any less toothless, it might just have been the difference that could have stopped Bush unilaterally going to war. After all, do you seriously think a US invasion is going to solve anything?? Bush Sr. tried something similar in Somalia, another African country, I seem to remember, and we know what happened then - in fact my flatmate bought me the film for Xmas!

BTW, did you see 'The Hamburg Cell' last night? IMO a very interesting and insightful film, I thought, allowing the viewer to get some idea of what motivated al-Queda to commit the September 11th attacks.

Ultimately this is what undoes US military strategy every time - the repeated and continual failure to understand properly any country into which it chooses to send in its soldiers, guns and bombs.

As bhazen alludes, sure the Dark Ages awaits if the UN goes to the wall but let's be honest, they're not exactly proving resolute standard-bearers for peace, so ultimately your use of sarcasm is no real surprise, more an accurate reflection of the uncomfortable reality in which we live.

Regards,

JonR

I don't think he's returning his calls at the moment.

Harry

UN STARTS MANY WORDS !

quote:

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Originally posted by HTK:
I don't think he's returning his calls at the moment.

Harry

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Who's that then, Mark Thatcher or 7V?

quote:

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Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
UN STARTS MANY WORDS !

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Too true, Graham, too true.

Regards,

JonR

PS: I wonder if Steve (7V) has been put off by my manically depressive earlier post?

quote:

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Originally posted by JonR:
...Who's that then, Mark Thatcher or 7V? ...

...PS: I wonder if Steve (7V) has been put off by my manically depressive earlier post?

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I'm fully available for phone calls, emails, hi-fi shows, supermarket openings, etc. Mark on the other hand is currently searching for another desert to get lost in.

JonR, to be honest I thought it was I who was manically depressive on this issue. I'm not a fan of the UN at the best of times and this is certainly not the best of times in Sudan. I strongly feel that the UN must get themselves together, assert some authority and make a real difference here to demonstrate that they're not just the corrupt, impotent, self-interest group that many of us think they are.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

I agree with every word you say, Steve.

Regards,

JonR

PS: So when's your next supermarket engagement?

Can this be true?

Urgent action needed to stop Sudan atrocities

...and this from the f***ing Chinese

...causing a US backdown

Kofi Annan, the U.N. secretary-general, has presided ineffectually over the failure to stop genocide, first in Rwanda and now in Sudan.

[This message was edited by 7V on Wed 15 September 2004 at 7:07.]

[This message was edited by 7V on Wed 15 September 2004 at 7:10.]

The fact is very simple:

The world governments don't care, including yours, mine, and everyone else's, because the people of Sudan aren't a factor of production.

Sad, pathetic, disturbing, etc. Maybe the African Union will get its shit together and show us how it's done. I hope.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
Maybe the African Union will get its shit together and show us how it's done. I hope.

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Don't think so: with a few exceptions, Africans are irredeemably tribal; ruled by despotic tyrants; proof in my mind that the vast mass of people there were better off under colonial governments, the British Empire in particular. Kitchener wouldn't have stood for the Ganjaweeds, he would've sent out a khaki column and Maxim-gunned 'em. Victorians were right when they called it the Dark Continent.

Regards,
Col. Adrian T.R. Blimp, VC, KCB

But isn't the onus on those few exceptions to show the way forward for the rest of the continent? I would hope so anyway, that is if the AU wants to earn respect at home and around the world.

Anyhow, I found this interesting as I'm sure the hawks did too: Syria used chemical weapons in Sudan

Ludwig of Zulu?GrrrrNO!-Swazi

PS- Oops just noticed 7V posted a Syria link; ah well.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
But isn't the onus on those few exceptions to show the way forward for the rest of the continent? I would hope so anyway, that is if the AU wants to earn respect at home and around the world.

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The AU is about to have a heap more pressure put upon it.

Last week, Powell declares genocide in Sudan. The significance of this is that in the event of genocide, the UN is, I believe, legally obliged to take action.

Today, Iraq war illegal, says Annan. The timing of this remark makes it clear that it represents an escalation in this war of words.

The Sudan crisis is being used as a pawn in the battle between the US and the UN. I hope that some good can come out of this for the people suffering but, with the US unable and unwilling to act itself and the UN being an organization of self-interested hypocrites, I don't hold out much hope.

Steve

Sadly, even if the US gov't had the sincere desire to intervene, all our ground forces are deployed elsewhere...we're even depleting our tripwire in Korea to prop up the forces in Iraq. Few African nations have the military strength to go into Sudan; I think the EU should do something positive there, as most of them stayed out of Iraq (which I don't blame them for doing). Paris and Bonn (or is Berlin again the capital?) could go in there, although I'm not sure if they have the airlift capacity.

I thought some of you would find the latest UN Sudan Funding Overview interesting (two weeks old)- http://www.unsudanig.org/emergencies/darfur/reports/data/Darfur-Funding-Overview.pdf

I focused on the in-kind, seperated food, and cash contributions and was surprised to see the US prominent in each category. To this day I feel that Colin Powell doesn't resign just so we can maintain the slightest shred of respect. IMO, etc.

WRT troops, when I first started following the Sudan story a few months ago I noticed both the US and UN took the position that they couldn't contribute troops. IIRC Australia offered the most boots.

quote:

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Originally posted by bhazen:
...I think the EU should do something positive there, as most of them stayed out of Iraq (which I don't blame them for doing). Paris and Bonn (or is Berlin again the capital?) could go in there, although I'm not sure if they have the airlift capacity.

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Germany won't send in troops as they haven't yet recovered psychologically from the 2nd World War (military-wise). France won't send in troops as there's no money in it for them.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7V:
France won't send in troops as there's no money in it for them.

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Ouch!

That's you off Chiraq's xmas card list then!

Regards,

JonR

Further to my comments about the war of words with the UN ("Genocide in Sudan", "Illegal war in Iraq") come these comments:

Randy Scheunemann, a former advisor to US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, said that the UN's failure to act in Sudan, and in other areas around the world, was proving that effective multilateralism may be a contradiction in terms.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard has labelled the international body "paralysed" and has said it was "incapable of dealing with international crises".

The diplomatic pressure increases on the UN.

I don't bring this up solely for the sake of those being persecuted in the Sudan. I believe that if the UN shows itself to be impotent in this crisis it will effectively be the end of the organization's ability to play any serious role in the governing of the world. Much as I despise the UN, I believe that the alternatives will be worse. The UN must get its shit together and fast.

Iraq war allies lash out at Annan

quote:

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I don't bring this up solely for the sake of those being persecuted in the Sudan. I believe that if the UN shows itself to be impotent in this crisis it will effectively be the end of the organization's ability to play any serious role in the governing of the world.

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As far as I am concerned, that point was reached long ago

Laurie S