Electric Cars

The trouble with electric cars is that they burn the following fuels:

Coal
Oil
Gas
Nuclear

Also there are inherent losses in taking energy from the power grid and charging the batteries so that you can use the electric car.

Also there is the weight penalty of dragging along the batteries needed to travel a specific distance.

There is also the finite life of the batteries and their safe disposal every 5 years i believe.

So after all of the above why not burn hydrocarbons in your engine and use the power to directly power the vehicle so missing out on all the above innefficiencies.

Alternatives to oil dug out the ground :

Vegetable oils
Alcohols from natural fibres
In germany they are now manufacturing Hydrocarbon fuels from the component parts of Hydrogen carbon oxygen.

If we go Hydrogen for fuel we have to make hydrogen so that consumes energy too.

I fear there is only a lose lose scenario.

There is energy use which ever way you cut it.

Don't forget to factor in the inefficiencies and pollution from pumping, refining, storing and transporting that petrol...
David

True , but this already occurs and the cost of fuel retail here in aus is $1.18 per litre which is less than a bottle of water from the supermarket.

Still we are looking for a more environmentally acceptable source of energy and i am afraid electrics cars dont cut it.

The most interesting is the Lotus/American TESLA.

This is a modified elise with a modern high tech motor and very sexy Lithium ion battery pack which weighs 70% of the weight of the elise. So swap weight of engine for a much heavier battery pack which has a service life of five years.

Also you have to plug it into the mains to get the energy required for the battery pack.

Bonus is is when battery dead elise pretty light so not too bad to push it home.

As for hybrid cars well what a joke .

Turn on petrol engine to charge battery then turn off petrol engine and drive off battery and feel good that not polluting ???????

What a joke.

Why not ditch battery pack and reduce weight and complexity of vehicle.

regards David

quote:

Why not ditch battery pack and reduce weight and complexity of vehicle.

Couldn't agree more.
David

Interesting points thus far.

On the front of greenhouse gases, my electricity producer is carbon neutral.

I am also intending to install a bank of solar and wind generators to boost.

I am not saying forget oil altogether but decreasing reliance on it.

There are some misinformation about the batteries in electric cars, they can last more than 100000km. Deep cycle ones without memory effect are already present.

Spotty

As I understand it...

1) Solar PV is not yet at a position to be viable.
2) You need to be in exposed parts of the countryside or coastal for wind power to be effective.

and

having driven a G-Wiz (the higher power spec. one, I forget its name), I seriously would not go anywhere near one (assuming that is fairly representative of electric cars at the moment).

Best options in my opinion are

a) to go for a fuel efficient small petrol car with a low g/km CO2 rating (Citroen C1 1L is 109g/km, or similar) and wait until electric car technology has evolved some more.
b) to minimise journeys
c) to work from home (if appropriate)
d) Do as much as is possible to offset your car's carbon footprint elsewhere in life.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
Spotty

As I understand it...

1) Solar PV is not yet at a position to be viable.
2) You need to be in exposed parts of the countryside or coastal for wind power to be effective.

and

having driven a G-Wiz (the higher power spec. one, I forget its name), I seriously would not go anywhere near one (assuming that is fairly representative of electric cars at the moment).

Best options in my opinion are

a) to go for a fuel efficient small petrol car with a low g/km CO2 rating (Citroen C1 1L is 109g/km, or similar) and wait until electric car technology has evolved some more.
b) to minimise journeys
c) to work from home (if appropriate)
d) Do as much as is possible to offset your car's carbon footprint elsewhere in life.

Julian

I walk to destinations where possible already. My current fuel comsumption is 45 miles per gallon. I have energy saving bulbs.

I know I can do more hence my desire for an electric car to do close commuting to destinations where it will take too long to walk. Given todays traffic gridlock an electric car makes sense. Do not get me wrong I enjoy a track burn in the Fraser. Also, GM use to make the EV1 which I know out accelerated the Nissan 300Z easilly. Why the developement did not go further? Electric cars have been present long before internal combustion engines but we as consumers tended to buy internal combustion ones. This is only part of the reason for the lack of electric cars, I suppose.

I suggest an alternative way of reducing CO2 transport emissions is with a high efficiency conventional engine. For example, the diesel version of Citroen C1 at 83mpg for an urban-cycle, or VW’s diesel Lupo at 79 mpg. Running on biodiesel would be an an option.

With an economical small motorcycle you can get over a 100 mpg. Unfortunately there are no small biodiesel options yet, though bio-ethanol substitutes for petrol are likely to be viable for such small engines and available in the near future (already in Sweden). My old Yamaha moped used to obtain 115 to 120 mpg in 1980.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick_S:
I suggest an alternative way of reducing CO2 transport emissions is with a high efficiency conventional engine. For example, the diesel version of Citroen C1 at 83mpg for an urban-cycle, or VW’s diesel Lupo at 79 mpg. Running on biodiesel would be an an option.

With an economical small motorcycle you can get over a 100 mpg. Unfortunately there are no small biodiesel options yet, though bio-ethanol substitutes for petrol are likely to be viable for such small engines and available in the near future (already in Sweden). My old Yamaha moped used to obtain 115 to 120 mpg in 1980.

Electric Car charged from renewable resource like solar and wind or hydro can be almost zero carbon emmision. Surely this is a compeling reason to use electric cars as much as possible. And no need for oil either!

I agree, but the small range of current models and the short life of the batteries makes them less than ideal for the sort of distances you propose. By selling your excess elecricity generation back to the grid rather than charging an inefficient battery powered vehicle you could still have a net reduction in CO2 emissions.

I enjoy observing Prius owners seething when one discusses the dust to dust carbon footprint of the Prius versus the Hummer, in which the Hummer has a smaller footprint.

Mining a material in Canada - shipping it to Wales for some processing, then to China for processing and thence to Japan to be assemble into the accumulator and thence into the car and shipping the car to California or wherever does seem more of a logistics triumph than an eco triumph.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
I enjoy observing Prius owners seething when one discusses the dust to dust carbon footprint of the Prius versus the Hummer, in which the Hummer has a smaller footprint.

Mining a material in Canada - shipping it to Wales for some processing, then to China for processing and thence to Japan to be assemble into the accumulator and thence into the car and shipping the car to California or wherever does seem more of a logistics triumph than an eco triumph.

I think I know what you are trying to say. Can you be more specific though?

I am certain there are items in your current car will fall into your point. After all it is called global trade.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick_S:
I agree, but the small range of current models and the short life of the batteries makes them less than ideal for the sort of distances you propose. By selling your excess elecricity generation back to the grid rather than charging an inefficient battery powered vehicle you could still have a net reduction in CO2 emissions.

Battery tech is more advance than is published/promoted. Why make this widely known when there is oil and ever increasing oil price = profit. A large party with tight ties to oil company has the patent to some new battery tech which have been burried in the vault. Try google if you are interested.

Now you're moving away from practical solutions to eco-politics. I would be interested in your findings if you come up with a practical vehicle that you can use with a suitable range and charging time.

Italians have a lot of electric microcars e.g., the Pasquali is often seen in Florence and Milan and is used by their postal service. However, in a recent trip of mine the most interesting vehicle, for me, was a 2 cylinder 500cc diesel vehicle which had the potential for running from biodiesel. This is the Maranello which is also offered in a petrol/electric version that extends its useful range (specs: 50-70 Km and the petrol engine allows an extra range of 360 + 40 Km electric):
http://www.maranello4cycle.com/en/home

I also looked at some nice electric scooters (in the style of the Suzuki Bergman) which have some potential, being much more lightweight, but the range (and cost 15k euros!) was again the Achilles heel.

quote:

A large party with tight ties to oil company has the patent to some new battery tech which have been burried in the vault. Try google if you are interested.

So Google, Ltd. has the patent then?
Seriously, be a bit more specific with a link at least.
There were rumors and articles published in the '70s that GM, Ford, Standard Oil, etc. had locked away technology that would allow a car to get 500 miles/gallon. All bullocks.
Just remember that any new technology in batteries will take many years of effort in testing to prove safety, reliability, environmental impact, etc. before ANY company will offer them in their cars. To say nothing of cost reduction in manufacturing, etc. The latest whiz-bang battery research in the labs (and under patent for that matter) will reasonably take 5 years to make it to the market.
avid

Yes those other patents locked away with the car engine that runs on water etc.
Mind you if it did water would go up in price to a £1 a litre.
Google "urban myths"

I am trying to generate some discussion. There is no need for sarcasm and ridicule.

Toyota, Honda and GM in the late 80's I think or early 90's had electric cars which ran well. Why were they removed from availablity? Do not belive that there was no demand.

quote:

Seriously, be a bit more specific with a link at least.

So a link to help generate some discussion, then?
And I have a hard time believing that a US company (or especially Toyota) would bury a product if it had real demand.
Those electric cars from the '80s had severly limited range and other problems. I know people that owned them on the West coast. No one in their right mind would have one where they had any kind of commute. A bop around town might be fine but any more than 10 or 15 miles was out of the question.
David