Sorry, I'm not trained

Not quite sure what your point is?

I think the point is obvious.

Not to me.

The role of the PCSO:

www.national-pcsos.co.uk/id3.html

but they are also humans and so should respond in a reckless suicidal manner to make a grand gesture to attempt a failed rescue and probably risking their own lives as well and probably be given a state funeral as well.

After if Acad was around he would strip off his current id to become "Erik the super" and dive into the water clearing it all away to rescue the kid

I assumed the point(s) are

Lets have a proper police force - not the mickey mouse one associated with PCSOs

The PCSOs, if they had any humanitarian instincts at all - or even half a brain between them - could have done what any other member of the public would have done, assuming they could swim. And to hell with the disciplinary consequences.

No doubt I am missing some subtle politically correct point. Or were these guys just whimps in uniform?

cheers

Don

According to the BBC [either PM or the Six O'Clock News on Radio Four] even the regular Police are no longer required to have Swimming Lifesaving skills. No doubt, given the unpopularity of the PCSO style half Police, the issue will arise at the next General Election, or perhaps not ... ?

It is entirely unreasonable to expect a non-swimmer to jump into unknown waters to save another individual, even a child.

My question is where where the parents in the is case?

ATB from George

I pulled someone out a lake a few years ago. I am not a fully qualified lifeguard, was I wrong to do so?

I tell you this much and without doubt if I was there I would have been in in an instant, end of.

garyi,
when and if should you think about what could happen if you yourself should become injured or die whilst attempting the rescue? Does the duty owed to an unknown child outweigh that owed to your family?

So you are saying it was right to stand and watch him drown then Roy?

quote:

Originally posted by Polarbear:
I pulled someone out a lake a few years ago. I am not a fully qualified lifeguard, was I wrong to do so?

If it weren't in such poor taste, in view of the seriousness of the subject, I might say,

"...but you are a polarbear."

There is no right answer. It depends on whether getting in is likly to produce a successful result. If the net result is that someone else has to get in to rescue the rescuer as well, it is certainly a highly irresponsible thing to to do - to go and "have a go."

This will vary in every case depending on the circumstances and the individuals concerned.

Again I ask, where were the parents? Entirely innocent of any responsibility? Not so different to the Maddy case in Portugal really...

Popole are happy to load all the blame elsewhere, when I would think responsibility starts with the parents in everycase, and only when they have entirely fullfilled their responsibilities does it then divolve outwards.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Polarbear:
So you are saying it was right to stand and watch him drown then Roy?

Not being able to swim has something to do with my thinking as this makes makes the chance of me rescuing the unseen child rather too much of a risk when considering what may happen to those of mine I would leave behind if I drown whilst trying to help. Now if the child would have been visible say thrashing about on the surface then without a doubt I would have attempted some form of rescue from the bank.

Potentially sensationalist headlines.

The officers arrived after the boy had gone under. They had no idea where he was or how to look for him in the depths of the lake or how to rescue him. As the man said "They did not just stand there and watch the boy drown"

GML - perhaps you'd outline your case more clearly? Are you assuming a basic level of lifesaving swimming skills?

If you are you assume the individuals were trained...and you may well be incorrect. The vehicle in question, a 110 long wheelbase was fully submerged - hardly paddling depth.

Just a couple of bits to chew on...

ah - it was a sensationalist comment, then?

I did a basic lifesaving course at school and it has never needed to be used, BUT why is stuff like this not part of the national curriculum?

Both of my children will do the same when they are old enough to do so.

Life is to valuable to piss-away for the lack of a simple skill like swimming.

The two PCSO will have to live with their (in)actions for the rest of their lives. Together they could have worked to try and save the life in question and felt like they had tried. If it was my boy who had drowned they would have lived to regret that moment of weakness for a long time.

Jono

whenever I deal with a crash, I ask myself not what the conclusion was, but who did the aggressive or aggravating move that caused the collision. What was the causation for this?

It's a domino effect, if you get my drift.

Blame cures nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jono 13:
I did a basic lifesaving course at school and it has never needed to be used, BUT why is stuff like this not part of the national curriculum?

Both of my children will do the same when they are old enough to do so.

Life is to valuable to piss-away for the lack of a simple skill like swimming.

The two PCSO will have to live with their (in)actions for the rest of their lives. Together they could have worked to try and save the life in question and felt like they had tried. If it was my boy who had drowned they would have lived to regret that moment of weakness for a long time.

Jono

The fundamental of any "lifesaving" is that you do not recklessly risk your own life in the process. Too many times those attempting to save lives in danger in water themselves die in the process along with those they are trying to save.

I have to agree with Nigel. First ensure that you and your fellow helpers are safe is the rule in emergency situations. If the judgement is that jumping in means BOTH of you die then that is not a heroic result.

Perhaps the PCOS's made that judgement, and perhaps they'd stand by it today.

It was not their fault the child drowned-as Andy C points out.

Bruce

I wonder if the media will now pillory these parents who let their young child out of their sight who then set in motion a train of events that led to the death of another of their children? Will their also be a hounding of the two PCSO by people gifted with 20-20 hindsight and the swimming ability of Mark Spitz? I expect so until either Northern Rock, Iraq or the McCanns knock this off of the front pages .

Dear Roy,

I hope the media hound nobody, but I really hope the parents consider their own over-riding responsibility to keep their own children safe, rather than ticking others off for not displaying faux-heroism in attempting a resue where the victim was not even apparently visible, and therefore was bound to be fruitless if even possible downright foolish.

Exactly the same as the Maddy thing really. Iy is always someone else's fault, and the parents seem not realise how bloody foolish they look, when they do this.

ATB from George

There is a lot of blame being attached to the PCSO's but we don't know the facts. For example:

The stretch of water is referred to as John Pit pond. Is it a shallow pool, a flooded quarry or a flash (following mining subsidence). If the last two, it could be very deep and numbingly cold.

The child had disappeared by the time the PCSO's got there. The mother is now quoted as saying that anglers told the PCSO's where the boy had disappeared.

And if the PCSO's had had lifesaving training, would they have remembered that a lifesaver should only enter the water as a last resort?

A child drowned, and that is a terrible tragedy. But looking for someone to blame is futile, especially when it seems that the PCSOs acted sensibly and correctly. I cannot blame the parents either. As a child, I behaved recklessly, unknown to my parents. I would also be surprised if none of my children did the same. Kids have minds of their own.

Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
There is a lot of blame being attached to the PCSO's but we don't know the facts.

A lot of your questions are answered in the statement from Manchester police:

http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/pages/F2653124D69C5FFE8025735D0062878F.htm

regards, Tam