Computer audio - a beginner's perspective

Posted by: JonR on 19 August 2010

Because, yes folks, despite being an owner of Naim products for some years, I am virtually at a loss to know where to start. I have taken a look at a fair few of the threads in this section and well, basically, my head hurts

So it was with this in mind that I decided to make a last minute trip to Studio AV tonight to see the Uniti products, HDX and DAC, and to get a handle from the Naim guys about what the options are and, importantly IMO, what would appear to me to be some basic principles on which to base a prospective computer- or distributed audio set up. This, it should be noted, is geared towards achieving optimum sound quality.

So what I learnt tonight, if memory serves, is as follows:-

1) Rip to WAV
2) Use spDIF
3) Use a wired network, preferably Ethernet
4) Use a Draytek router

Since those of you who frequent this section of the forum are obviously experts, I'd be very interested to guage your opinion on the above, and also hear what other suggestions you might have. Also, I would very much like to hear your thoughts about which of Naim's Uniti/streaming products appeal to you and why.

Thanks in advance for any reply.

Posted on: 26 August 2010 by JonR

On the subject of routers, why should one male of router be better than another? Is a Draytek better than its Netgear equivalent, or vice versa? On what grounds? Are we just talking about sound quality again here?

Posted on: 26 August 2010 by james n

I would think Naim recommend certain routers for performance issues - in a full Naimnet system you could have 6 concurrent audio streams running from an HDX / NS / Serve so router performance will be more critical.

James

Posted on: 26 August 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
why should one make of router be better than another?

As it is a computer peripheral, it is no different than hard drives, processors, and mobos. Some are better than others. Whether it is faster, more robust, reliable, i cant answer. But as always, you get what you pay for.

And no it shouldn't have ANY affect whatsoever on sound quality.

-Patrick

Posted on: 26 August 2010 by Guido Fawkes

Only in terms of reliability and functions - I have Juniper and Cisco routers and both have worked faultlessly - the Juniper is much easier to set-up - we use them at work and in 7 years had never had one fail. There is really nothing to go wrong in them. I guess cheaper routers may be less well built and develop faults: though we use Draytec and they are very good too. I'd just get a recommended router that does what you want and fits your budget.

Patrick is right - it makes no difference to the sound.

Posted on: 28 August 2010 by Holty

quote:
Originally posted by JonR:
Soooo.....flexible cat6, non-solid-core ethernet cable then?

you seriously do not have to get hung up on this. I've worked in the IT industry for 16 years and the differences are minute

Posted on: 29 August 2010 by Stuart M

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
other than that they sound the same?
if they don't sound the same I'd be stunned as it would like saying a vinyl record with a blue label sounded better than one with a green label - the musical data in AIFF and WAV are the same, it is just the peripheral stuff that's different.

Two words "Peter Belt" - http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Th...lours_and_sound.html

I'll get my coat.

Posted on: 29 August 2010 by rich46

dont tell them colour makes a different they will be asking for different cables/boxes etc

Posted on: 07 September 2010 by JonR

Another question, specifically about ripping:-

Most CDs are mastered at different sound levels, so some will sound louder for a given volume setting than others. Is there a setting in the ripping software that enables all such CDs to be ripped to the same volume level?

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by intothevoid

quote:
Originally posted by JonR:
Another question, specifically about ripping:-

Most CDs are mastered at different sound levels, so some will sound louder for a given volume setting than others. Is there a setting in the ripping software that enables all such CDs to be ripped to the same volume level?

It's called Replay Gain, and you will find heated debates as to whether or not it has a detrimental effect on the music. But, hey, what's new?

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by totemphile

If your plan is to buy a NDAC, a Sonos solution is IMO the best way forward at the moment. I am saying this for the following reasons:

1) To date Sonos offers the best user interface on the market. It is a joy to use.
2) It offers all the key functions you will want to have, i.e. Internet radio access, streaming of a NAS, etc. The in-built integration with iTunes, last.fm, napster, deezer, etc. will provide you with a window to just about any music you can think of, at the touch of a button.
3) It plays all the key file formats.
4) It provides the option to go multi-room if you want. Again, as far as I am aware Sonos have come up with the best concept to date.
5) Price wise it is hard to beat. If you have an exiting system (pre/power amp or integrated) a ZP90 will suffice and cost a mere €349.
6) Sound wise you should be very happy. Connected to the NDAC via a good digital RCA cable it can offer some stunning results. Yes at the moment Sonos solutions only offer 16 Bit / 48 kHz resolution but this does not strike me as such a big deal for now. A) Currently, there don’t seem to be that many highres files available that most of us would really want to play let alone buy. B) Sonically 16/48 is comparable to a good CD recording and it can result in some very fine results indeed it seems. Have a look at this threat: https://forums.naimaudio.com/ev...417/m/7062992617/p/1

In a the right set up the sound quality may not quite reach CD555 levels but I would think that for most people here this should be more than they will ever feel a need to have.

However, since most of us are unlikely to have the funds to go to this level with their system, I guess it would be interesting to know how Sonos sounds through a bare NDAC on a more modest system, i.e. a Nait XS, SuperNait, 202/200, etc. Unfortunately I cannot provide this info as I have not heard this combo. I do know Sonos though and love it. And since Naim has not come up with a pure, and modestly priced, streaming solution yet that offers Internet radio access as well as the ability to play of a NAS yet without a built in amp or expensive DAC, this will be the solution I am going to buy. I am sure the NDX is a brilliant product but like most people here to me it makes no sense to buy it if you already own a NDAC or plan to buy one. Unless you got some very deep pockets of course. So for now I will go with Sonos because none of the existing Naim products are a better fit if you own a NDAC.

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by jtktam

As long as you stay away from $5 network switches, you should be fine.

I have ran my network with Dlink/linksys/netgear before I updated to cisco and they all work fine even with gigabit ethernet and 6 uPnp clients all running at the same time pulling from the 3 server farm

-joe

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by Phil Harris

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
Fear not, I'm just grumpy because the new Amiga I was after has been delayed yet again until early next year .... one day it will happen and not an Intel chip in sight.

I keep thinking about getting a modern day Amiga myself - I miss my old A500 and A2000 in so many ways but I suspect that it's more a case of rose tinted spectacles...

Phil

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by bigsplice

quote:
Originally posted by totemphile:
If your plan is to buy a NDAC, a Sonos solution is IMO the best way forward at the moment. I am saying this for the following reasons:

1) To date Sonos offers the best user interface on the market. It is a joy to use.
2) It offers all the key functions you will want to have, i.e. Internet radio access, streaming of a NAS, etc. The in-built integration with iTunes, last.fm, napster, deezer, etc. will provide you with a window to just about any music you can think of, at the touch of a button.
3) It plays all the key file formats.
4) It provides the option to go multi-room if you want. Again, as far as I am aware Sonos have come up with the best concept to date.
5) Price wise it is hard to beat. If you have an exiting system (pre/power amp or integrated) a ZP90 will suffice and cost a mere €349.
6) Sound wise you should be very happy. Connected to the NDAC via a good digital RCA cable it can offer some stunning results. Yes at the moment Sonos solutions only offer 16 Bit / 48 kHz resolution but this does not strike me as such a big deal for now. A) Currently, there don’t seem to be that many highres files available that most of us would really want to play let alone buy. B) Sonically 16/48 is comparable to a good CD recording and it can result in some very fine results indeed it seems. Have a look at this threat: https://forums.naimaudio.com/ev...417/m/7062992617/p/1

In a the right set up the sound quality may not quite reach CD555 levels but I would think that for most people here this should be more than they will ever feel a need to have.

However, since most of us are unlikely to have the funds to go to this level with their system, I guess it would be interesting to know how Sonos sounds through a bare NDAC on a more modest system, i.e. a Nait XS, SuperNait, 202/200, etc. Unfortunately I cannot provide this info as I have not heard this combo. I do know Sonos though and love it. And since Naim has not come up with a pure, and modestly priced, streaming solution yet that offers Internet radio access as well as the ability to play of a NAS yet without a built in amp or expensive DAC, this will be the solution I am going to buy. I am sure the NDX is a brilliant product but like most people here to me it makes no sense to buy it if you already own a NDAC or plan to buy one. Unless you got some very deep pockets of course. So for now I will go with Sonos because none of the existing Naim products are a better fit if you own a NDAC.

Cant agree more! Big sonos fan/user! Currently using sonos into nDAC/XPS/282/150x. awaiting naim product to convince me to change! User interface is perfect!!

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by bigsplice

quote:
Originally posted by bigsplice:
quote:
Originally posted by totemphile:
If your plan is to buy a NDAC, a Sonos solution is IMO the best way forward at the moment. I am saying this for the following reasons:

1) To date Sonos offers the best user interface on the market. It is a joy to use.
2) It offers all the key functions you will want to have, i.e. Internet radio access, streaming of a NAS, etc. The in-built integration with iTunes, last.fm, napster, deezer, etc. will provide you with a window to just about any music you can think of, at the touch of a button.
3) It plays all the key file formats.
4) It provides the option to go multi-room if you want. Again, as far as I am aware Sonos have come up with the best concept to date.
5) Price wise it is hard to beat. If you have an exiting system (pre/power amp or integrated) a ZP90 will suffice and cost a mere €349.
6) Sound wise you should be very happy. Connected to the NDAC via a good digital RCA cable it can offer some stunning results. Yes at the moment Sonos solutions only offer 16 Bit / 48 kHz resolution but this does not strike me as such a big deal for now. A) Currently, there don’t seem to be that many highres files available that most of us would really want to play let alone buy. B) Sonically 16/48 is comparable to a good CD recording and it can result in some very fine results indeed it seems. Have a look at this threat: https://forums.naimaudio.com/ev...417/m/7062992617/p/1

In a the right set up the sound quality may not quite reach CD555 levels but I would think that for most people here this should be more than they will ever feel a need to have.

However, since most of us are unlikely to have the funds to go to this level with their system, I guess it would be interesting to know how Sonos sounds through a bare NDAC on a more modest system, i.e. a Nait XS, SuperNait, 202/200, etc. Unfortunately I cannot provide this info as I have not heard this combo. I do know Sonos though and love it. And since Naim has not come up with a pure, and modestly priced, streaming solution yet that offers Internet radio access as well as the ability to play of a NAS yet without a built in amp or expensive DAC, this will be the solution I am going to buy. I am sure the NDX is a brilliant product but like most people here to me it makes no sense to buy it if you already own a NDAC or plan to buy one. Unless you got some very deep pockets of course. So for now I will go with Sonos because none of the existing Naim products are a better fit if you own a NDAC.

Cant agree more! Big sonos fan/user! Currently using sonos into nDAC/XPS/282/150x. awaiting naim product to convince me to change! User interface is perfect!!

ps USB sticks with WAV files superior SQ still tho! If USB user interface better id stick with them! (No pun intended lol!!)

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by JonR

Thanks for the info guys - the Sonos sounds like a useful device. Is it a so-called "UPnP renderer" also? Do you interface with it using a web-page or iPhone/iPad app? (Apologies if you've covered some of this already)

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by totemphile

Any Sonos solution, including the ZP90, can be controlled through a dedicated Sonos controller, the CR200, or through your iPhone. I don't think there is an iPad app yet. If you do not mind spending an extra £279, the CR200 is a very neat remote control. It offers more convenience as well as some additional functionalities as I understand it, compared to the iPhone app. Have a look at their website. There you will also find some introductory videos showcasing the solution.

Sonos is about to launch Spotify in the UK, a service that allows you to play any song by just typing in the artist and/or song title. A bit like one big infinite jukebox at your fingertip.

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by JonR

quote:
Originally posted by totemphile:
Sonos is about to launch Spotify in the UK, a service that allows you to play any song by just typing in the artist and/or song title. A bit like one big infinite jukebox at your fingertip.

Yes, I saw this mentioned in another thread. Useful to know!

Posted on: 08 September 2010 by jlarsson

I am adding Sonos as a complement to my HDX-based system for internet radio and Spotify.

And of course the nice iPad controller app they are releasing.