Do we all start as utopian idealists?
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 23 July 2006
Dear Friends,
I wonder if it would be fair to say that we all start as innoscents, with idealism and gentleness, and gradually have this wiped off us with the bitter experience of life?
A nice open starting point for you all!
Fredrik
I wonder if it would be fair to say that we all start as innoscents, with idealism and gentleness, and gradually have this wiped off us with the bitter experience of life?
A nice open starting point for you all!
Fredrik
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by JoeH
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Friends,
I wonder if it would be fair to say that we all start as innoscents, with idealism and gentleness, and gradually have this wiped off us with the bitter experience of life?
Not really, I don't think. Once children are old enough to move around and speak, some manifest as 'bad' in behavioural terms and some as 'good'. Whether this is because of genetic predisposition or environmental influences has baffled behavioural scientists for many years, but I think it's clear that children aren't just 'blank slates' that are defaced by the nasty old world as they go through this vale of tears.
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by kuma
Fredrik,
I think males, in general, are more idealistic than females who are generally more pragmatic and practical.
But it's possible this is why many innovations and advances in all area are made by men than women because of it.
This is my *pet* theory anyways!
I think males, in general, are more idealistic than females who are generally more pragmatic and practical.
But it's possible this is why many innovations and advances in all area are made by men than women because of it.
This is my *pet* theory anyways!
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
I think I've become more idealistic with age.
Having a clear 'personal ideology' seems more important precisely because it is so easy to have your views and principles eroded by experience and weary cynicism.
I'm not sure that 'idealism' and 'being practical' are at the opposite ends of a scale. I am much more consistent about actually doing what I think is right now than ever before.
Bruce
Having a clear 'personal ideology' seems more important precisely because it is so easy to have your views and principles eroded by experience and weary cynicism.
I'm not sure that 'idealism' and 'being practical' are at the opposite ends of a scale. I am much more consistent about actually doing what I think is right now than ever before.
Bruce
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by Geoff P
Is there room for idealism in the day to day need to deal with the modern world?
I don't claim any special perfection but I grew in a post 2nd world war world far more idealistic at the nuts and bolts level than today, in spite of the national trauma that had just been survived. The large majority of people seemed much more gentle in the way they behaved towards me and my siblings, and there were authority figures in abudance that nevertheless seemed accessible such as the local "bobby", maintaining the rules of society in a consistent but kindly way.
My kids have grown to adulthood and are now in their 30's. They are both pretty decent guys in my opinion but there is a harder core to the way they approach life which was shaped by growing in and dealing with today's world which I now recognize as inevitable. By my earlier standards they seem somewhat self centered but I recognize that as a survival mechanism. The "blow you I'm alright jack" effect seems very strong now and I have had to force myself into that way of thinking in some circumstances to make headway in day to day life, so to me it is hardly surprising to see it in others.
regards
Geoff
I don't claim any special perfection but I grew in a post 2nd world war world far more idealistic at the nuts and bolts level than today, in spite of the national trauma that had just been survived. The large majority of people seemed much more gentle in the way they behaved towards me and my siblings, and there were authority figures in abudance that nevertheless seemed accessible such as the local "bobby", maintaining the rules of society in a consistent but kindly way.
My kids have grown to adulthood and are now in their 30's. They are both pretty decent guys in my opinion but there is a harder core to the way they approach life which was shaped by growing in and dealing with today's world which I now recognize as inevitable. By my earlier standards they seem somewhat self centered but I recognize that as a survival mechanism. The "blow you I'm alright jack" effect seems very strong now and I have had to force myself into that way of thinking in some circumstances to make headway in day to day life, so to me it is hardly surprising to see it in others.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by JoeH
quote:I don't claim any special perfection but I grew in a post 2nd world war world far more idealistic at the nuts and bolts level than today, in spite of the national trauma that had just been survived. The large majority of people seemed much more gentle in the way they behaved towards me and my siblings, and there were authority figures in abudance that nevertheless seemed accessible such as the local "bobby", maintaining the rules of society in a consistent but kindly way.
S'funny; I'm presumably of a similar age to you but I recall 'authority' figures being mostly sadistic teachers ready and willing to clout people for any or no reason at all!
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by Steve Toy
There's only one thing worse than idealism; rose-tinted nostalgia.
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by Mick P
Chaps
I agree with Steve on this.
I can remember as an 8 yr old boy in 1956 being told that my future role in life was to fight for king and Country and help to expand the Empire.
Those savages needed ruling etc.
Yes there was more respect for law and order then but today we seem to be more caring.
Yesterday, for instance, overweight people were just lasy fat sods, today we are more caring and counsel them in lifestyles etc. We do more to help people today than ever before and to be fair the PC brigade have helped here.
I would rather be an 8 yr old today than say 50 yrs ago.
Life is better today than ever before.
Regard
Mick
I agree with Steve on this.
I can remember as an 8 yr old boy in 1956 being told that my future role in life was to fight for king and Country and help to expand the Empire.
Those savages needed ruling etc.
Yes there was more respect for law and order then but today we seem to be more caring.
Yesterday, for instance, overweight people were just lasy fat sods, today we are more caring and counsel them in lifestyles etc. We do more to help people today than ever before and to be fair the PC brigade have helped here.
I would rather be an 8 yr old today than say 50 yrs ago.
Life is better today than ever before.
Regard
Mick
Posted on: 24 July 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
Steve/Mick
I agree on the nostlgia point.
I do not equate having ideals and 'gentleness'? I think some of the posts are muddling up idealism and innocence/naivety. I think we lose our innocence at an earlier age. I'm not sure that is all bad!
I agree on the nostlgia point.
I do not equate having ideals and 'gentleness'? I think some of the posts are muddling up idealism and innocence/naivety. I think we lose our innocence at an earlier age. I'm not sure that is all bad!
Posted on: 26 July 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Life is better today than ever before.
Hmm, I suppose I see what you mean. Although things have improved in respect of the rights of the individual, the overall condition of society as a whole seems to have deteriorated. One source of rot is the lowering of eveything to the lowest common denominator, such that no one shall be deemed too low.
EW
Posted on: 26 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
What is low? What indeed is high?
I have observed life from more than one social standpoint. 'Nuff said perhaps, on the fall, which was not my doing!
With this experience, the one thing I have learned is that however clever an individual may be (and I am not, for example, but not entirely stupid either), is that the only thing that marks a good person out is how he or she behaves towards his or her fellow man. We are all born by the same route, and meet the same fate. What the differentiating factor is, how civil, honest, respectful and generous, and perhaps most of all forgiving, between the two events, anyone of us is.
I see nothing to indicate that the general level is improving.
I was doubting I could answer my own Thread, but it has become non-specific and philosophical, so I can.
On the issue of the humanising aspects of life, I have recently been agonising over some behaviour which really could have done me harm and was utterely maliscious - very upsetting actually, at least to a sensitive prerson. After a few days to reflect I guess, I have not quite become the ogre it could be easy to have become. In fact I am almost back to normal, and this cannot be bad...
Fredrik
I have observed life from more than one social standpoint. 'Nuff said perhaps, on the fall, which was not my doing!
With this experience, the one thing I have learned is that however clever an individual may be (and I am not, for example, but not entirely stupid either), is that the only thing that marks a good person out is how he or she behaves towards his or her fellow man. We are all born by the same route, and meet the same fate. What the differentiating factor is, how civil, honest, respectful and generous, and perhaps most of all forgiving, between the two events, anyone of us is.
I see nothing to indicate that the general level is improving.
I was doubting I could answer my own Thread, but it has become non-specific and philosophical, so I can.
On the issue of the humanising aspects of life, I have recently been agonising over some behaviour which really could have done me harm and was utterely maliscious - very upsetting actually, at least to a sensitive prerson. After a few days to reflect I guess, I have not quite become the ogre it could be easy to have become. In fact I am almost back to normal, and this cannot be bad...
Fredrik
Posted on: 26 July 2006 by kuma
'I used to be Snow White. But I drifted...'
Posted on: 26 July 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kuma!
You brighten my life every time to post a reply to me! Fredrik
You brighten my life every time to post a reply to me! Fredrik
Posted on: 27 July 2006 by Rasher
quote:
I wonder if it would be fair to say that we all start as innoscents, with idealism and gentleness, and gradually have this wiped off us with the bitter experience of life?
I think we all start as innocent, but without understanding the concept of gentleness or having any idea that there is a world and that we will eventually be required to play a part. It is then only through development that we identify our ideals and choose a path that is either spiritual or materially agressive.
quote:Yesterday, for instance, overweight people were just lasy fat sods, today we are more caring and counsel them in lifestyles etc.
And sometimes it is almost impossible to be compassionate to others without appearing patronising and condescending, however well meant. In order to assist others, you assume a position of greater wisdom, which of course is ridiculous.
The more you try to live a life caring and compassionate to others, the harder it becomes to actually achieve it, and this is where cynicism creeps up on you.
Posted on: 27 July 2006 by JoeH
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
What is low? What indeed is high?
I have observed life from more than one social standpoint. 'Nuff said perhaps, on the fall, which was not my doing!
With this experience, the one thing I have learned is that however clever an individual may be (and I am not, for example, but not entirely stupid either), is that the only thing that marks a good person out is how he or she behaves towards his or her fellow man. We are all born by the same route, and meet the same fate. What the differentiating factor is, how civil, honest, respectful and generous, and perhaps most of all forgiving, between the two events, anyone of us is.
I see nothing to indicate that the general level is improving.
I was doubting I could answer my own Thread, but it has become non-specific and philosophical, so I can.
On the issue of the humanising aspects of life, I have recently been agonising over some behaviour which really could have done me harm and was utterely maliscious - very upsetting actually, at least to a sensitive prerson. After a few days to reflect I guess, I have not quite become the ogre it could be easy to have become. In fact I am almost back to normal, and this cannot be bad...
I think it's true to say that, for most people, the majority of a person's character is a result of 'nature' rather than 'nurture', which is good in one way (impossible to turn people into mindless automatons) but bad in another way (some people cannot be 'reformed' out of bad behaviour). So, barring extreme trauma, most of bounce back to our 'core' personality, even if events temporarily change our outlook/attitudes.