Hydra or not ?
Posted by: Seanbeer on 14 April 2009
Nait5i CD5i Nat03
offered to buy a 3 to 1 hydra, worth it?
I already connected CD5i and Nait into one Carbtree plug.
what are ur thoughts?
offered to buy a 3 to 1 hydra, worth it?
I already connected CD5i and Nait into one Carbtree plug.
what are ur thoughts?
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by Mike-B
Do not be fooled by promises of audio nirvana using different mains connections and cables. It depends to a great extent on how good your mains supply is. The effects of special equipment, cables & treatments are best used (heard) on poor a supply. If your supply wiring is good into and around your property and the main power input is steady volts and HZ, the effects of cables and equipment are hard to hear and put a value on. The mains supply issues go ever deeper in your location, - HK = my 2nd fav city – and will be compounded by interference from outside, RF especially, power factor & phase pollution from zillions of florescent lights & other high capacitive and inductive loads all add a screw up to the generation plants perfect sine wave and power factor correction.
But most important of all is the fact that no matter what you do with cables & connections, and no matter what house cabling is used; a bad mains supply is still a bad mains supply. But a bad supply need not be made worse by bad house wiring, equipment cables and connections.
In my experience Hydra’s do work well on all mains supplies, it will never be worse than without a hydra. They work mainly by reducing connection points and linking wiring – especially the earth (ground) - into a common connection. You have already gone a way to this by connecting CD & Amp into a single plug.
My set up has a DIY 4 leg hydra using Supra screened mains cables and a dedicated spur, but best of all is a near perfect mains supply from a substation at the end of the road – 3 houses away.
But most important of all is the fact that no matter what you do with cables & connections, and no matter what house cabling is used; a bad mains supply is still a bad mains supply. But a bad supply need not be made worse by bad house wiring, equipment cables and connections.
In my experience Hydra’s do work well on all mains supplies, it will never be worse than without a hydra. They work mainly by reducing connection points and linking wiring – especially the earth (ground) - into a common connection. You have already gone a way to this by connecting CD & Amp into a single plug.
My set up has a DIY 4 leg hydra using Supra screened mains cables and a dedicated spur, but best of all is a near perfect mains supply from a substation at the end of the road – 3 houses away.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by JYOW
Sean,
I notice that offer too. I also have a three to one hydra and to be honest I could not hear discrenable difference. Nothing like when I switched to a Powerline and more recently a Hi-Line. For fear of contradicting the previous poster, the Powerline did make quite a significant difference.
Having said that, the theory is there and like the previous poste said, hydra = or better than no hydra, and you save a couple of wall plugs along the way. I also know of someone else in hong Kong installing an exotic power plug and fuse with good results. And he only had to invest in one plug, which sounded like a good deal.
And if you think of it, the hydra is a good deal, I believe a single Naim factory power cord cost about 2-30 GBP?
In revenge of you tempting me to buy a Naim CD player, get some Powerlines.
I notice that offer too. I also have a three to one hydra and to be honest I could not hear discrenable difference. Nothing like when I switched to a Powerline and more recently a Hi-Line. For fear of contradicting the previous poster, the Powerline did make quite a significant difference.
Having said that, the theory is there and like the previous poste said, hydra = or better than no hydra, and you save a couple of wall plugs along the way. I also know of someone else in hong Kong installing an exotic power plug and fuse with good results. And he only had to invest in one plug, which sounded like a good deal.
And if you think of it, the hydra is a good deal, I believe a single Naim factory power cord cost about 2-30 GBP?
In revenge of you tempting me to buy a Naim CD player, get some Powerlines.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by Roy T
quote:but best of all is a near perfect mains supply from a substation at the end of the road – 3 houses away.
Source first wins every time.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by JYOW
One question I have is that many people outside the Naim world suggest seperating the Amplifiers witht he digital sources. Doesn't the hydra go against that concept.
Although if your wall plugs are like mine, they are all daisy chained togethet by my lazy electrial contracters, which I found out after the rennovation is over. Really ticked me off.
Although if your wall plugs are like mine, they are all daisy chained togethet by my lazy electrial contracters, which I found out after the rennovation is over. Really ticked me off.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by JWM
FWIW I preferred sound of £7 4-in-1 multiplug to £100 4-way Hydra.
Depending on price, a Hydra could be worth getting IF you intend buying a Powerline at some stage. Simply cut the 'tail' of the Hydra off short and fit a Schurter in-line IEC socket (about £7), into which you plug the Powerline, delivering a good whack of the PL's benefit to every component.
Yes, this is the same principle as using a quality IEC-inlet mainsblock BUT without the extra plugs/connections/fuses involved with the mainsblock method.
Had I kept the Hydra I once bought s/h to try, this is exactly what I would have done.
Depending on price, a Hydra could be worth getting IF you intend buying a Powerline at some stage. Simply cut the 'tail' of the Hydra off short and fit a Schurter in-line IEC socket (about £7), into which you plug the Powerline, delivering a good whack of the PL's benefit to every component.
Yes, this is the same principle as using a quality IEC-inlet mainsblock BUT without the extra plugs/connections/fuses involved with the mainsblock method.
Had I kept the Hydra I once bought s/h to try, this is exactly what I would have done.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by hungryhalibut
quote:Depending on price, a Hydra could be worth getting IF you intend buying a Powerline at some stage. Simply cut the 'tail' of the Hydra off short and fit a Schurter in-line IEC socket (about £7), into which you plug the Powerline, delivering a good whack of the PL's benefit to every component.
Yes, this is the same principle as using a quality IEC-inlet mainsblock BUT without the extra plugs/connections/fuses involved with the mainsblock method.
Had I kept the Hydra I once bought s/h to try, this is exactly what I would have done.
James
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I don't understand this. I have a hydra with a 5m tail, as my kit is on the other side of the room to the spur socket. Taking what you say, if I replace the hydra's plug with an IEC socket, and then add a powerline between the wall and the IEC socket, the sound will get better. How can that be? All I can think of is that you lose the Crabtree plug and gain a Naim powerline plug, and an extra connection (IEC to IEC).
Is the improvement real or imaginary to justify the £400?
Nigel
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by sjo
Sean, I replaced a six socket flying lead with a 5 headed Grahams hydra into a dedicated mains and convinced myself that a) it sounded better and; b) the cost was not prohibitive. On a practical note, with an 03 you get a captive mains lead so you will probably chose to do what I did and fit a female IEC on its lead in place of the 3 pin plug. It adds one additional connection which is not ideal.Regards Sid.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by GrahamFinch
To Hungry Halibat,
I have 4 Powerlines which were plugged into 4 double unswitched wall sockets fed by a dedicated mains spur.
I previously used a hydra type arrangement but with a separate dedicated earth to a spike in the garden. The Powerlines connected straight to the wall sockets sounded much better than the hydra.
At the weekend, out of interest, I knocked up a distribution block with two double unswitched Crabtree sockets mounted on a piece of mdf. I wired a mains lead with a Crabtree plug to the new block but did not connect the earth wire to the plug. Instead, I reconnected the separate dedicated earth wire leading to the earth spike in the garden.
I then plugged my 4 Powerlines into the new block with the single Crabtree plug going into one of the four wall sockets.
The sound was cleaner and more spacious with better imaging and a leaner tauter bass. Overall, I think it was a more relaxed musical presentationbetter with more detail.
So my view is that if you have a dedicated spur with a long fly lead from the spur to your equipment the Powerlines will still make a difference, as will having a dedicated earth wire which seems to lower the noise floor.
THE KEY THING IS TO ENSURE THE SYSTEM REMAINS EARTHED. As I have my own garden it is unlikely that the earth will be damaged but I check it from time to time. Obviously, it is not so easy if you live in flats or do not have exclusive use of a garden.
When people talk about alternatives to buying expensive mains distribution blocks I still think they should try the Crabtree diy version which is cheap and easy to make and which Naim themselves use. Crabtree sockets are available on line in the UK for about £5 each but sadly Crabtree plugs are no longer available.
I hope this helps.
I have 4 Powerlines which were plugged into 4 double unswitched wall sockets fed by a dedicated mains spur.
I previously used a hydra type arrangement but with a separate dedicated earth to a spike in the garden. The Powerlines connected straight to the wall sockets sounded much better than the hydra.
At the weekend, out of interest, I knocked up a distribution block with two double unswitched Crabtree sockets mounted on a piece of mdf. I wired a mains lead with a Crabtree plug to the new block but did not connect the earth wire to the plug. Instead, I reconnected the separate dedicated earth wire leading to the earth spike in the garden.
I then plugged my 4 Powerlines into the new block with the single Crabtree plug going into one of the four wall sockets.
The sound was cleaner and more spacious with better imaging and a leaner tauter bass. Overall, I think it was a more relaxed musical presentationbetter with more detail.
So my view is that if you have a dedicated spur with a long fly lead from the spur to your equipment the Powerlines will still make a difference, as will having a dedicated earth wire which seems to lower the noise floor.
THE KEY THING IS TO ENSURE THE SYSTEM REMAINS EARTHED. As I have my own garden it is unlikely that the earth will be damaged but I check it from time to time. Obviously, it is not so easy if you live in flats or do not have exclusive use of a garden.
When people talk about alternatives to buying expensive mains distribution blocks I still think they should try the Crabtree diy version which is cheap and easy to make and which Naim themselves use. Crabtree sockets are available on line in the UK for about £5 each but sadly Crabtree plugs are no longer available.
I hope this helps.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by Seanbeer
JYOW,
I will be getting a better Naim CD player before I get any Naim 'lines'.
seems like there is no point for me getting the hydra since i have alraedy wired cd and amp into the crabtree plug and plugged into a spur made for my setup with 4mm pirelli cable and MK unswtiched socket.
about the power quality from local supply, nothing we can do about it.
ok, money saved.
I will be getting a better Naim CD player before I get any Naim 'lines'.
seems like there is no point for me getting the hydra since i have alraedy wired cd and amp into the crabtree plug and plugged into a spur made for my setup with 4mm pirelli cable and MK unswtiched socket.
about the power quality from local supply, nothing we can do about it.
ok, money saved.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by JYOW
sean,
So you have both the CD and amp wired into the same crabtree plug, effectively making our own hydra? And you have a dedicated spur already? Well then I think you are way ahead.
Actually in Stereophile Listening #39, Art Dudley talked about Naim hydra and Noisetrapper NANA.
So you have both the CD and amp wired into the same crabtree plug, effectively making our own hydra? And you have a dedicated spur already? Well then I think you are way ahead.
Actually in Stereophile Listening #39, Art Dudley talked about Naim hydra and Noisetrapper NANA.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by Seanbeer
quote:Originally posted by JYOW:
sean,
So you have both the CD and amp wired into the same crabtree plug, effectively making our own hydra? And you have a dedicated spur already? Well then I think you are way ahead.
Actually in Stereophile Listening #39, Art Dudley talked about Naim hydra and Noisetrapper NANA.
I had the spur installed during renovation of the flat before move in, so i don't have anything to compare it to and hence don't konw how much it improve things , if i want i can plug it in a socket on the main ring. but I am lazy and dont' want to do pointless thing to annoy the mrs. so.......
i just said to myself the SPUR is good.
as for power issue. my latest is on making sure the Squeezebox is unplugged , its on another spur which currently only powers LP12 motor/Nat03/Dyna P75.
I am not sure if it is actually the sb or the power adpaptor only or both but as soon as the wallwart adaptor is plugged in, the sound degrade. so now when the SB not in use, its unplugged from the adaptor.
i also notice the futher away the P75 is to my wick and to its power supply the better it sounds.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by count.d
quote:I then plugged my 4 Powerlines into the new block with the single Crabtree plug going into one of the four wall sockets.
Every time I've tried a single plug or hydra method, I've disliked the results. There always seems to be a "life sucking and brittle" signature to the sound. This was with hydra, Powerigel, Duraplug block (which was a shame as all contacts were welded) and Crabtree distribution block from dealer.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by JWM
quote:Originally posted by hungryhalibut:
James
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I don't understand this. I have a hydra with a 5m tail, as my kit is on the other side of the room to the spur socket. Taking what you say, if I replace the hydra's plug with an IEC socket, and then add a powerline between the wall and the IEC socket, the sound will get better. How can that be? All I can think of is that you lose the Crabtree plug and gain a Naim powerline plug, and an extra connection (IEC to IEC).
Is the improvement real or imaginary to justify the £400?
Nigel
Strange but true Nigel! As recommended to me by Michael of this fair Forum. And on the basis of my PL/Wireworld Matrix block it really does work, everything seems to get a share of the PL's benefit. In fact I found the use of a single PL better this way than directly into a single component. (Perspective's not great on the photo, but in fact no cables are touching and the PL is arranged in a graceful loop.)
If it works with a mainsblock, it should work even better with the Hydra arrangement I have suggested, because of fewer plugs/connections/fuses(and possibly star earthing). If worried, you could always try just swapping the Hydra mainsplug for iec inline socket to begin with, before doing the snip.
Have fun, and what new speakers are you getting?
James
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by Seanbeer:
as for power issue. my latest is on making sure the Squeezebox is unplugged , its on another spur which currently only powers LP12 motor/Nat03/Dyna P75.
I am not sure if it is actually the sb or the power adpaptor only or both but as soon as the wallwart adaptor is plugged in, the sound degrade. so now when the SB not in use, its unplugged from the adaptor.
i also notice the futher away the P75 is to my wick and to its power supply the better it sounds.
This is one instance when I think something like a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet with all the noisy (non-naim) equipment plugged into it may help.
Does anyone have any experience with the PS-Audio Ultimate Outlet seperating non-naim equipment from switch mode power supplies? Does it work?
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by Mike-B
quote:Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
To Hungry Halibat,
....... but did not connect the earth wire to the plug. Instead, I reconnected the separate dedicated earth wire leading to the earth spike in the garden.
Graham, please be careful
The UK incoming supply provides the earth connection. This is effectively earth & neutral linked together, but the way this is achieved varies. Older properties will have a separate earth spike into the ground near where the supply enters the property. Newer properties (25/30 years) should be using PME, (Protective Multiple Earth) or TN-C-S per IEE standards. With PME earth and neutral wires are connected together directly at various intervals and to the local substation transformer earthed neutral. In this PME set up only two wires enter the property - live and neutral - and the earth circuit connects to the neutral here. Earth bonding for the property will remain unaffected in the event of an earth fault elsewhere in the local distribution system.
Modifying this set up with a separate local earth spike does have some potential risk:
If you have PME then a local earth spike and a bonded neutral/earth means your house could end up as thee safety earth route for all the houses in the distribution transformer area. An open neutral for example in the area now uses your earth spike to make the circuit.
Your mod – if I understand it correctly - is providing a local earth that is only connected to your HiFi system and not to the domestic supply at all. The problem with this is that with DIY earth rods it is next to impossible to match supply earth impedance, plus there will always be a seasonal variable in the earth (soil) itself. Therefore you will always have a (variable) voltage potential difference between the spike earth and the supply earth. Not a real problem with no faults on the line, but with a fault you have the potential risk that if you ground yourself or your HiFi components to a heating pipe or radiator, you will be feeling and hearing a degree of pain and damage to yourself and your system.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by count.d
Mike, this was precisely the advice given by my electrician.
I didn't agree with your post yesterday though.
I didn't agree with your post yesterday though.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by Mike-B
Count-d
I 100% agree with your electrician and also that people are free to disagree with my opinions based only on my ears and my system.
Electricity and its regulations are a fact and linked to a nearly precise science.
Music, both listening and playing is a very subjective and emotive free for all.
I 100% agree with your electrician and also that people are free to disagree with my opinions based only on my ears and my system.
Electricity and its regulations are a fact and linked to a nearly precise science.
Music, both listening and playing is a very subjective and emotive free for all.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by GrahamFinch
Mike,
I have a normal fused consumer unit. A separate spur was connected to this by my brother in law (an electrician\0.
The spur has four unswitcheddouble sockets, all properly connected and earthed back tot he consumer unit.
One plug now connects to one of the sockets with a mains lead to the distribution block. However, whilst the live, neutral and earth wires are connected to the 13 amp plug the earth is not connected to the block. The cable is earthed via the plug.
The earth from the distribution block goes directly to the earth spike in my garden.
I do not see how this could earth other properties as there is no physical earth connection from the block back to the consumer unit, only to the spike in my garden.
I discussed this arrangement with Naim reps a while ago and was advised it would be OK provided the connection to the earth spike was correctly maintained and the equipment was earthed.
It provides a different (better, I think) sound as (I assume) there is less interference coming back from what would otherwise be the common earth on the main consumer unit. The arrangement provides a single earth for the Naim electronics only.
By the way my house was built in the 1970s.
I would not knowingly do anything dangerous to either my family or my Naim gear in pursuit of sound quality so would be intersted to know just how likely it would be for the situation to develop as you describe.
I accept the point about variable ground conditions - I think Adam made a point about watering his earth spike in warmer drier months. But, forgive my ignorance, would the earth at the transformer end not suffer the same problem - plus also have all the associated intereference from common earthing of everything in the area???
Not arguing - just curious.
Graham
I have a normal fused consumer unit. A separate spur was connected to this by my brother in law (an electrician\0.
The spur has four unswitcheddouble sockets, all properly connected and earthed back tot he consumer unit.
One plug now connects to one of the sockets with a mains lead to the distribution block. However, whilst the live, neutral and earth wires are connected to the 13 amp plug the earth is not connected to the block. The cable is earthed via the plug.
The earth from the distribution block goes directly to the earth spike in my garden.
I do not see how this could earth other properties as there is no physical earth connection from the block back to the consumer unit, only to the spike in my garden.
I discussed this arrangement with Naim reps a while ago and was advised it would be OK provided the connection to the earth spike was correctly maintained and the equipment was earthed.
It provides a different (better, I think) sound as (I assume) there is less interference coming back from what would otherwise be the common earth on the main consumer unit. The arrangement provides a single earth for the Naim electronics only.
By the way my house was built in the 1970s.
I would not knowingly do anything dangerous to either my family or my Naim gear in pursuit of sound quality so would be intersted to know just how likely it would be for the situation to develop as you describe.
I accept the point about variable ground conditions - I think Adam made a point about watering his earth spike in warmer drier months. But, forgive my ignorance, would the earth at the transformer end not suffer the same problem - plus also have all the associated intereference from common earthing of everything in the area???
Not arguing - just curious.
Graham
Posted on: 16 April 2009 by Mike-B
quote:Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
YOUR HOUSE WAS 1970 VINTAGE; IT IS IN THE CHANGE OVER PERIOD FOR IMPLEMENTING PME
The spur has four unswitched double sockets, all properly connected and earthed back tot he consumer unit.
The earth from the distribution block goes directly to the earth spike in my garden.
THIS HAS THE POTENTIAL OF HAVING A DIFFERENT VOLTAGE ON THIS EARTH THAN THE SUPPLY EARTH
I do not see how this could earth other properties as there is no physical earth connection from the block back to the consumer unit, only to the spike in my garden.
IF THE NEUTRAL BECOMES OPEN (A BREAK IN THE WIRE) THEN THE MAINS SYSTEM EARTH MAKES THE CIRCUIT. YOUR HIFI ONLY EARTH MAY BE A PURE EARTH, BUT IN THIS SCENARIO THERE WILL BE A VOLTAGE DIFF BETWEEN YOUR EARTH AND THE HOUSE SYSTEM AND IF YOU MADE A CONNECTION EITHER PHYSICALLY OR EQUIPMENT TOUCHES SOMETHING LIKE A RADIATOR, THEN YOU WILL CONDUCT THAT VOLTAGE POTENTIAL.
I discussed this arrangement with Naim reps a while ago and was advised it would be OK provided the connection to the earth spike was correctly maintained and the equipment was earthed.
IT IS OK, BUT DOES HAVE A POTENTIAL FOR MISHAPS IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG
AND A NAIM REP IS NOT NORMALLY QUALIFIED TO MAKE ADVISORY STATEMENTS ABOUT REGULATIONS.
It provides a different (better, I think) sound as (I assume) there is less interference coming back from what would otherwise be the common earth on the main consumer unit.
YOUR EARS ARE YOUR EARS AND IF YOU THINK ITS BETTER, THEN IT’S BETTER.
I would not knowingly do anything dangerous to either my family or my Naim gear in pursuit of sound quality so would be intersted to know just how likely it would be for the situation to develop as you describe.
VERY RARE INDEED AND SHOULD NOT BE A HAZARD IF YOU HAVE RCD (RESIDUAL CURRENT DETECTOR CIRCUIT BREAKERS)
……… would the earth at the transformer end not suffer the same problem - plus also have all the associated interference from common earthing of everything in the area???
THE TRANSFORMER END EARTH IS A LARGE SURFACE AREA PLATE, NOT A SPIKE, AND ITS AT A DEPTH THAT WILL BE CONSTANTLY WET ENOUGH TO GIVE AN ALMOST UN-MEASURABLE RESISTANCE AND NO SEASONAL VARIATIONS.
Not arguing - just curious.
Fyi - MY HOUSE SYSTEM IS PME, BUT I ALSO HAVE INSTALLED AN EARTH SPIKE THAT CONNECTS TO THE INCOMING CABLE EARTH AND THE DISTRIBUTION (FUSE) BOX AND ALSO GROUNDS ALL THE WATER & HEATING PIPES. WHICH ARE ALSO CROSS-BONDED AT APRX 2 METRE INTERVALS ALL OVER THE HOUSE. THE HIFI SPUR GETS ITS EARTH AT THE DISTRIBUTION BOX
HOPE THIS HELPS
Graham