2004 TDF

Personally, I like to be able to believe that the Tour was completely clean, and that I was witnessing a great feat of sporting skill and endeavour, rather than just chemically backed cheating.

On one hand it's hard not to cheer for Armstrong when he does one of those eyeballs-out climbs and drops everyone. But equally his persona is starting to get on my tits - which is why I want to see Jan win this year.

Patrick - you may as well ask the same of many other sports. That's not necessarily a good reason for not enjoying them, either as a participant or as a spectator.

Unless you prefer to live by your presumptions, of course.

Tim

Patrick - drugs or no drugs the amount of effort, ability to endure pain, and self-sacrifice that pro cyclists endure is second to none. THe idea that skill and endeavour can be replaced by drugs is just silly. Pumping an average Joe with EPO ain't going to get him up mount Ventoux as fast as even a lowly domestique.

What would I like to see? -- the best man winning. I'm hoping for a healthy race, with no major pack splitting crashes giving some team a several minute lead. This one should be decided in the mountains. If they arrive in shape, Tyler and Jan should give Lance a real test. Bring on the L'Alpe d'Huez TT!

Dan

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Patrick - you may as well ask the same of many other sports.

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Yes, indeed I would. I appreciate that cycling is not the only offender, but I think it's encumbant on those of us who love sport (even if it's only watching!), to make it clear that we don't want to watch cheats.

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Patrick - drugs or no drugs the amount of effort, ability to endure pain, and self-sacrifice that pro cyclists endure is second to none.

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The problem is, I think that kind of attitude condones the use of drugs in sport. Many of these drugs have a very negative effect on the longer term health of the (ab)users, and in any case taking them is cheating, but until all drugs in sport are stamped out (and that has to mean zero tolerance IMO), there will always be pressure on althletes to take them if they want to win. Lance Armstrong's refusal to condem and distance himself from Dr Ferrari, who is known to be connected to drug abuse in cycling, IMO seriously tarnishes his acheivements, the TDF as a whole and cycling in general. I can no long watch and enjoy it, because I don't know who is and who isn't clean. To me that's not what sport's about, but maybe you have different standards to me.

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...but maybe you have different standards to me.

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Yep, the presumption of innocence. I honestly believe Lance doesn't take illegal performance enhancing drugs. I also believe he is a true inspiration to many dealing with cancer (and so has more to lose than most should he be found abusing). I also think Tyler showed immense courage last year; continuuing with a broken colar bone and even winning a stage. You may think I'm naive in this, perhaps I am. I guess eventually the truth will come out.

cheers,

Dan

It will be hard to see how Deutsche Telekom can't win this year, with Ullrich, Vinkourov, Evans, Zabel and Botero. It will be interesting to see who wins the fight to be team leader, although they're all saying publicly that they are firmly behind Ullrich (it will also be interesting to see the big guy on a tiny Giant bike). My guess is that Evans, Vino and Ullrich will all be racing to win the first few stages from each other so they can legitimately claim to be leader.

A healthy Tyler Hamilton will also be an excellent chance for a win this year.

It's difficult to believe that Armstrong will win a sixth tour. All that extra-curricular activity has to have been a distraction, but he certainly is capable of pulling off some amazing performances on the big cols.

Ross

It's partly the feeling that everyone's going to gang up on him this year (and not just Telekom) that might make me root for LA on the Alpe.

Those Giants are horrible. Apparently Pinarello are still spitting feathers...

Tim

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Originally posted by Tim Jones:

Those Giants are horrible. Apparently Pinarello are still spitting feathers...

Tim

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I couldn't agree more...and that new kit...call the style police!

Anyway, anyone want to comment on the likely effect of Heras? OK, he'll lose in the flat TT's (sorry THE flat TT) but without the burden of his support role to Armstrong, he could make life difficult enough for Tex that Hamilton, Ullrich et al have a chance to really work him over. Think how many riders Armstrong will have to cover this year. The mountain TT could really work in Heras' favour this year, given the job he did on Nozal in the Vuelta.

Also, I love Lance's well-publicized comment that "Ullrich is the favourite this year", thereby deflecting a bit of pressure and concentrating media attention on his biggest rival -- seven months before the race starts!

Whatever you think about Tex (and yes, he's getting on my tits as well), he's a very astute character.

Cheers,

Tim
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Os nid Campagnolo yw hi, dyw hi ddim yn werth ei marcho...

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Yep, the presumption of innocence.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pro-cycling condone the use of EPO by allowing a level at which it is permissable; so of course everyone can legally dope up to that level. And if you are over, you are not 'doping', you're just not allowed to ride for your own safety!

You probably think that Flo-jo died of natural causes too, and that baseball and american football are clean ....

They all are innocent of breaking the rules .... until they are caught.

Drug cheating is not even as 'sporting' as Maradonna's 'hand of God'. At least we all knew he cheated at the time; the problem with drugs is that nobody knows who is and isn't cheating - sometimes forever. That taints the whole sport. IMV the 'true' sport-lover, says that drug taking is unacceptable, rather than just turning a blind eye.

Patrick -

I can't help feeling that yours is a slightly self-fulfilling prophecy:

drugs are everywhere in sport, they're all at it;

I refuse to watch any sport where people cheat;

I won't watch or participate in any sport;

let's all us 'true sport lovers' just sit around watching "I'm a Celebrity..."

BTW - you're entirely wrong about pro cycling "condoning the use of EPO." IIRC the EPO test involves counting the number of red (or is it white?) blood cells, otherwise known as the haematocrit level - a measure of how effectively the blood moves oxygen around. Problem is cyclists train very, very hard to have naturally high haematocrit levels. Hence the 'thresholds' I think you are talking about. That's not 'condoning'. It's trying to find a way around a very sensitive problem.

Tim

Ok, so who's the real hero?

Lance Armstrong: five time winner of the TDF, but who associates himself with a known drug cheat,

or

Paula Radcliffe: London (and other) marathon winner, world record holder, best British (male or female) marathon runner, and who has taken a very public stand against drug cheats in her sport?

My contention is that if Lance is the hero that some here say he is, he would make a stand for the good of his sport. The fact that he's an American, and Americans seem to be so lax about drugs in sport, just makes it all the more suspicious to me.

Tim, I don't think that was my 'prophecy', self-fulfilling or not.

We seem to be shifting from "some cyclists in the past have used drugs so they may all be cheating, so it's a dirty sport which I don't want to watch", to "Lance has refused to condemn Dr Ferrari."

I've no idea what Dr Ferrari's past contains or why LA takes the attitude to him that he does. But the whole point is that it's entirely unfair to paint a whole sport (the sport I happen to love watching and taking part in) with the same brush - just as it would be wholely unfair of me to say that because some marathon runners cheat, dope, etc, that sport is full of cheats so isn't worth watching.

Can you see what I mean?

PS Paula is a Goddess. She trains in Richmond Park sometimes and I have (be still my heart!) traded friendly nods with her while training on a Sunday morning.

Tim

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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
The fact that he's an American, and Americans seem to be so lax about drugs in sport, just makes it all the more suspicious to me.

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Eh? Where's your evidence for this ridiculous sweeping statement.

I could, with equal justification, say: The fact that you're a whinging Englishman, and some Englishmen seem so eager to rail pathetically against American achievement, makes everything you say suspect.

But I won't.

Alan

The issue of EPO and blood doping deserves some clarification. The proportion of red blood cells to fluid in the blood is the haematocrit(HcT). It rises (slightly) with dehydration, and more significantly in situations where red cell production is increased (like high altitude). It rises a lot if you use EPO, or, even better, transfuse some red cells (best of all your own previously stored) back into yourself. Red cells carry oxygen, rises in numbers will improve aerobic capacity and performance at endurance events such as cycling/distance running etc.

The cycling rules reflect the fact that blood doping of the latter type is almost impossible to detect unless you are actually caught doing it. Synthetic EPO is also very hard to detect, but I believe the manufacturers have now added a chemical 'tag' which makes it possible. A haematocrit level is set by the sport above which a rider may not compete-ostensibly this is meant to be a surrogate measure for dehydration, but in reality it says-'go ahead and cheat but not beyond this level'. Very high haemtocrits cause all sorts of nasty complications like stroke or emboli-riders have died from blood doping effects. Almost all TdF riders come very close to the Hct cutoff every day, several are suspended each year for exceeding it (until it drops back down and then can rejoin the tour).

Stefano and others may have an interesting view on this I hope.

FWIW I think could be argued that if athletes could use any/all drugs or methods (but had to publicise all that they took) most of the current dodges would be kicked out as they do not actually help performance at all and what is left could at least be done overtly and therefore more safely. Maybe.

We could also judge the relative merits of an athlete who achieves great results by dint of dedication and training vs one who acheived the same with the help of pharmaceuticals. Which might also be interesting. Maybe.

The history of sport is littered with examples of high level and high profile doping cases which have been sponsored/ignored/whitewashed by their respective national sporting bodies. That includes the UK by the way.

Bruce

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Eh? Where's your evidence for this ridiculous sweeping statement.

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Umm, US Olympic Atheletics trials, (positive results covered up), Baseball, US football (rampant steriod abuse) - don't get much news up in Scotland do you Alan?

(I guess Chinese female swiming is worse though ...)

Thanks for the 'proper' explanation Bruce, anyone who reads the Sunday Times, will have read David Walsh's pieces on cycling, Lance Armstrong and drugs in sport. If you haven't, they're well researched and written, and worth seeking out.

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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
Umm, US Olympic Atheletics trials, (positive results covered up), Baseball, US football (rampant steriod abuse)

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"Umm" is the only sensible thing you've said. Drug testing is exposed more often in the US precisely because they do take it so seriously. It's not exposed in the UK as often as it should be because our press is too timid and cowed.

Still, if you'd rather try to score cheap points (and fail dismally) than cure your myopia, that's up to you, Patty.

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don't get much news up in Scotland do you Alan?

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It's no longer news to us that there's been an explosion in the number of jackasses south of our border. It's enough to give the English a bad name.

Alan

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Paula Radcliffe: London (and other) marathon winner, world record holder, best British (male or female) marathon runner, and who has taken a very public stand against drug cheats in her sport?

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what a load of shit you're talking Patrick. How does her very public stand against drug cheats prove that she's not one herself???? Just how does she manage to be SOOOO much better than everyone else? I seem to recall Carl Lewis also taking a very public stand against drug cheats...

Hey Pa,
I was amazed to see in the states you've gotta coupla long ditance bike races that make the TDF look like a picnic ride to Southend on Sea ? Great stuff.

Cheers, Fritz Von Psychologyisrepairinbikesinnit

LA for a record win, and I like the way the US breaks recreational drugs (Sports Scandals) and performance enhancing (Cheating) drugs into two catorgories & fines accordingly, makes sense to me Mate.
go ++++++++

Piss² Lance Armstrong is a credit to Human Endurance & Courage, and I rate him Big Style²

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
How does her very public stand against drug cheats prove that she's not one herself????

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It doesn't prove a thing. It does, however, suggest that she would have to be blessed with stupidity of unimaginable proportions so vociferously to declaim cheats whilst winning so widely as to put herself up for frequent testing. I admire PR much more than Lance precisely because she has chosen to speak out and not take the 'diplomatic head-in-the-sand' attitude affected by Lance. I have never once seen Lance condemn the drug cheats in cycling either during an interview or in print, (including 'his' books, both of which I have read). He merely repeats his "I've never tested positive-there's nothing to find" mantra. I believe Lance is clean, and I admire him for his fortitude in overcoming cancer and fighting his way back to the top, but I find his unwillingness not to upset the apple cart to be very selfish. He is a role model. He knows this, and I feel it is behoven upon him to speak out. What signal does he think he is sending out to all the youngsters just embarking on a cycling career (I mean juveniles/juniors here)? 'Become a champion, take the money and the glory and keep your eyes and mouth shut as long as the dollars keep rolling in'. The day I hear him speak out unequivocally he will go up in my estimation. I'm sure this bothers him a bunch.

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Just how does she manage to be SOOOO much better than everyone else?

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Perhaps by training harder and wanting it more than anyone else, even the cheats. Just because Carl Lewis was SOOOO much better than the rest and was subsequently found to be a cheat should not impugn Paula's reputation.

Incidentally, I'm going to support Tyler. I don't think he'll win, but I'm going to cheer for him anyhow.

Robin

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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
Americans seem to be so lax about drugs in sport

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Well, GW discussed performance-enhancing drugs in his State of The Union address last week. That's significant in a speech typically dedicated to the most crucial issues facing our country and aired on all major television networks nationwide.

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US Olympic Atheletics trials, (positive results covered up), Baseball, US football (rampant steriod abuse...

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Interestingly, baseball not football has the most serious problem (as rampant as your Premier League, but the NFL and NBA have recreational drug use more on par with the Premier League). Also, one thing folks outside the US might not understand is the significant leverage player unions have in negotiating test and punishment programs. And they don't want anything tested or banned.

Realistically, the science behind drugs will advance faster than that behind the testing, and the lure of the almighty dollar in American sports (and those abroad) won't change one bit. The only cure as I see it (and if I really cared) is to stop placing grown men and women who play games for a living on pedestals and stop supporting them so the carrot disappears. That, or Super Bowls between teams of those Sony and Honda robots.

Finally... On Lance, I couldn't care less if he doesn't speak out against drug use. He's an athlete/entertainer, not a PR wench.

[This message was edited by Ludwig on THURSDAY 29 January 2004 at 22:45.]

Oh, I'd like to see Hamilton and Armstrong battle to the finish this year.

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Originally posted by Emeritus:

Perhaps by training harder and wanting it more than anyone else, even the cheats. Just because Carl Lewis was SOOOO much better than the rest and was subsequently found to be a cheat should not impugn Paula's reputation.

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you've missed my point and that wasn't that Lewis was so much better than his opposition - he wasn't - but that he was outspoke about cheats in the sport despite being one himself. And right there's the problem, you just have no way of know what anybody is taking. If we're going to start presuming that all athletes are guilty because of what they may or may not say then we might as well give up hope now.

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
Oh, I'd like to see Hamilton and Armstrong battle to the finish this year.

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Nice attempt to pull this one back on track...

I'll be cheering for Tyler but don't have high hopes -- WTF is Phonak?

And what are Telekom thinking trading Pinarellos for Giants? You can't thow a Giant nearly as far as a Pinarello

-Dan

Patrick -

David Walsh has been conducting a vendetta against Armstrong for years. If you base your views of cycling on what he writes, it's no wonder you're so opinionated and poorly informed.

PS Do you participate in any sport? Save professional grumpy old manhood, obviously.

Tim

Well thanks to those of you who chose to participate in this thread in a thoughtful and constructive manner (there are a lot of good points made) - it's just a shame that Alan Scott was not one of them and chose rudness as an easy substitute.

Tim, I think you are wrong about David Walsh's conducting a 'vendetta'; he seems to me to be a genuine admirer of Lance's, who is as perplexed as me (and at least one other here) that Lance seems so ambivalent about drugs in cycling - particularly as he is such a clear role model for his sport.

As to my participation; sadly I am not as young as you, and my competitive days are well over, but I have participated in many sports on a non-competitive basis during my life; from motor racing to horse riding, cycling to swimming. I wasn't that good at any of them though!