2004 TDF

can anyone tell me what TV channel is doing the coverage?

Eurosport I presume??

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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
it's just a shame that Alan Scott ... chose rudness as an easy substitute.

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Patrick:

You think rudeness is easy? It comes naturally to a chosen few; the rest have to work at it.

If you want to keep things "thoughtful and constructive", choose your words more carefully - especially when writing about Americans and Scotland.

If, on the other hand, you want to roll in the dirt - gouging, biting, screaming and kicking - then I'm your man.

Alan

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Originally posted by Alan Scott:
If, on the other hand, you want to roll in the dirt - gouging, biting, screaming and kicking - then I'm your man.

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Oh, I see.

I have this image of Mel Gibson, face painted blue, charging across a field.

Bruce

...full of EPO and HGH, in a US Postal jersey.

Sorry to jump in a bit late.

Bruce has pointed out a very interesting issue.

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The cycling rules reflect the fact that blood doping of the latter type is almost impossible to detect unless you are actually caught doing it. Synthetic EPO is also very hard to detect, but I believe the manufacturers have now added a chemical 'tag' which makes it possible.

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During the past year, chemicals producers have been 'kindly asked' to add a tracking inhert substance for antidoping purposes, but they all refused. Guess why?

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Almost all TdF riders come very close to the Hct cutoff every day, several are suspended each year for exceeding it (until it drops back down and then can rejoin the tour).

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Bruce could confirm that 'normal' Hct level is in the 42-47 range. It is a commonly accepted view that HcT DECREASES with hard training, so that in the case of TDF, athletes starting with HcT of 46 should end the race with a lower level.
Do also consider that they have a very intense training and racing season before the TDF.
Surprisingly, most (all?) riders are able to keep their HcT level in the 47-49 range. What explaination can be given?

Example: my natural HcT value is 44-45. I ride all the year round, but the 'peak season' is april-july. Recovering period is august. I have blood examination regularly and my Hct is 44-45 in october-december, 43 in january-march and then decreases regularly down to 40-41 in july. In june and july I have to limit my training sessions if I want to race in the weekend.
I don't use 'forbidden' chemicals, but do take some (three a week, in the racing season) injections of B6 and B12 vitamins and iron derivatives (which are obviously allowed) that my doctor prescribes to me. One year I didn't use them and reached my negative HcT value: 37.5. I remember I felt extremely tired all the day!

That said, the TDF remains a wonderful show.
I don't have a favorite and don't really care who wins. For sure, all contenders have undergone huge sacrifices and they all deserve our respect.

Stefano.

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You think rudeness is easy? It comes naturally to a chosen few; the rest have to work at it.

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I could say that Alan Scott sounds like a complete tosser ... but I won't because it would be far too difficult (for me).

[This message was edited by Patrick Dixon on SATURDAY 31 January 2004 at 13:55.]

Stefano is right that chronic hard training at se level does tend to reduce haematocrit (and total red cell mass which is another issue entirely) but short term dehydration causes it to rise. The physiology is very complex and many issues come into play which may move haematocrit in either direction over short/long term.

That said the TdF limit of 50 is one that is rarely breached in physiological conditions in healthy adults. The fact that the recorded haematocrit of all TdF riders remains remarkably constant throughout the Tour is well reported and the idea that some manipulation creates this is hard to avoid.

I was unaware that 'tagging' of recombinant EPO (and HGH) had been refused.

We should be clear that the effect of blood doping on performance is small, these people are astonishing athletes already. It could of course be argued that it is not cheating if everybody does it too. Maybe.

Bruce

There's absolutely no chance of tagging recombinant EPO. Recent cases of red cell aplasia with some formulations have seen to that.

John

p.s. My own speculative feeling is that the benefits of EPO are compensation for Hct reduction in extreme training and other effects such as inducing angiogenesis (blood vessel growth) in skeletal muscle.

I take your points. Used 'correctly' an athlete could use EPO to correct a low haematocrit into the physiological range as the higher values may cause hyperviscosity issues anyway. Failing the TdF limit is probably counterproductive in performance terms.

All this rather suggests that with decent research we may actually debunk theories behind a lot of drug use and perhaps realise they are not always benficial to performance.

An example of sorts-in the British Journal Sports Medicine this month is a study suggesting that the extended aero position bloved of time-triallers has 'costs' in terms of reduced ventilation that (in non-elite individuals at least) may easily negate the aerodynamic advantage.

Bruce

Slightly O/T, but in the 2003 Tour Tyler was followed throughout the race by an IMAX production team. I've never seen an IMAX movie, but by all accounts this should turn into a real 'seat of the pants' film. For those interested in the details see the Feb 2004 issue of 'Cyclesport'. If anyone is interested but can't get hold of a copy, PM me and I'll e-m you a transcript.
BTW, Tyler's wife Haven is adorable. I wonder if they'd do a 'Riders Wives' section?

Robin.

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There's absolutely no chance of tagging recombinant EPO

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I've been told that there should be no problem in adding an inhert molecula (which does not affect the active ingredient) to the chemicals for tracking purposes. This has nothing to do with searching EPO directly. Please correct me if I'm missing something.
However I have never studied medicine and my (limited) knowledge is merely based on reading magazines, talking with doctors and (especially) talking with pro and ex pro riders.

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We should be clear that the effect of blood doping on performance is small

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People who have used it would certainly not agree with you.
You might also check yourself by comparing some figures: best performances which have been recorded during the 90's will never be reached again.

Stefano.

[This message was edited by Stefano Rosati on MONDAY 02 February 2004 at 09:00.]

Stefano yes it is very easy to insert a tag in a recombinant molecule however it is very likely to affect the structure and function of the molecule adversely. Recently some patients with kidney failure have developed severe red cell aplasia (failure to form red blood cells) after treatment with EPO. One consequence of this will be a reluctance on the part of drug companies to try to fidlle with EPO. There is a longer acting modified form erythropoietin already in fact (ARANESP).
The patent on EPO runs out soon so it will be much cheaper and more available.

Ofcourse EPO is already old hat and gene cheats are the next big thing.


gene doping

John

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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
[QUOTE]I _could_ say that Alan Scott sounds like a complete tosser ... but I won't because it would be far too difficult (for me).

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That's much better, but still not especially rude. It's also thoughtful and constructive. Well done.

Alan