The price of old metal

Posted by: gusi on 25 March 2003

Hello All,

The upgrade path has recently lead me into the land of diminishing returns. Most of my gear is secondhand and has been relatively affordable. Previous upgrades cost me around ukp500-1000 per box but newer upgrades will be at least double that. Even more if I consider new series gear.

The release of the new gear seems a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand, all the old gear has become more affordable but on the other it will become obsolete sooner and is no longer the top of the range.

With my cdx/lp12/hc/42.5/250/110/briks I am now facing a dilemma. Old naim nirwana (52/active briks) is within reach, OK perhaps Briks aren't everyones Nirvana but you get the idea. However I am not so sure about the wisdom of spending large sums on old equipment and it might be smarter to wait a few years for s/h new range gear to become available.

From that perspective I have a few questions:

1) What is the life expectancy of Naim gear. We often hear about recapping after 10 years but what about the rest of the components. With most naim gear being less than 20 years old It must be hard to make long term predictions.

2) What is the availability of old style components. There was a recent thread that stated that certain transistors were no longer available and only the existing Naim stock kept some boxes alive.

3) What is the deterioration rate of unused components? Say if Naim has had an existing supply of 10 year old components, that are no longer made, what is their life expectancy, 10 years less than new?

Now on to some specific questions:

4) Is there much difference between old and new 52's. ie those with old power supply and those with the supercap?

5) How sensitive is an active setup to matched poweramps and how matched are all the naim power amps? I've read mixed reports about this. ie will getting another 250 do the trick or should I really upgrade the 110 as well.

Don't get me wrong, I realise this did sound a bit negative, but I am just not in a position to buy a 552/500 outright (much as I would like to though).

I also realise that a 52 sounds just as good now as it did before the 552 was released. However since it is no longer top of the hill and is now a discontinued product I am worried that in 10 years time I'd be stuck with some unsalable gear. Or that it would be badly depreciated.

Would anyone care to place a crystal ball on their fraim, spread some tea leaves on a mana and make some predictions about second hand prices?

cheers
Gus
Posted on: 25 March 2003 by garyi
Predicting market trends is never going to be easy. But I wonder if 20 years ago the purchaser of a nap250 knew he would likly get 2/3rds of his money back 20 years later?

Naim does seem to hold value, although I personally think some of it has reached its peak, silver line stuff seemed to go for silly money last year but seems to have leveled.

I think you are just suffering the genrally negative and low ebb in the purchase market right now, a few years ago when there was no war etc I don't suppose for one minute you would have thought of these 'issues', and would have gone out and bought it.
Posted on: 25 March 2003 by Bob Shedlock
2nd hand prices are what the market will bear.

Until the CDX2, all my post series 5 purchases were "used". Basically I paid less than 50 percent of retail, so I consider it a value.

When buying most things for myself, I never consider the resale, because I didn't make the purchase as an investment.

It's Hi Fi, not High fashion. Does it sound good? Does it make you happy? Could you afford it in the first place?
Posted on: 26 March 2003 by Rico
quote:
However I am not so sure about the wisdom of spending large sums on old equipment and it might be smarter to wait a few years for s/h new range gear to become available.

Life is precious, short, and not guarenteed. Sad as it might be to consider, you might not be kicking around in two years! Were that the case, would you be kicking yourself for not having enjoyed something important to you to a greater degree while you were making plans?

Just my few 0.01 euros.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 26 March 2003 by Markus
Your questions:
<<<From that perspective I have a few questions:

1) What is the life expectancy of Naim gear. We often hear about recapping after 10 years but what about the rest of the components. With most naim gear being less than 20 years old It must be hard to make long term predictions.

----Naim gear lasts a LONG time. Naim is the best company in the world for supporting old equipment. ten, twenty years is NOT abnormal. There are many folks on this forum with relatively ancient equipment. The fact that an early 250 still has a relatively significant used value on the market is a testament to its ability to play music.

2) What is the availability of old style components. There was a recent thread that stated that certain transistors were no longer available and only the existing Naim stock kept some boxes alive.

-----IMHO this is not an issue. Naim will do the best job they can and better than anyone else in supporting their equipment.

3) What is the deterioration rate of unused components? Say if Naim has had an existing supply of 10 year old components, that are no longer made, what is their life expectancy, 10 years less than new?

-------I don't know. But Naim is better than anyone else at managing this issue.

Now on to some specific questions:

4) Is there much difference between old and new 52's. ie those with old power supply and those with the supercap?

-----Yes, newer ones are better but older ones are brilliant. The supercap is better than an old power supply. Do keep in mind that any old preamp may need service.

5) How sensitive is an active setup to matched poweramps and how matched are all the naim power amps? I've read mixed reports about this. ie will getting another 250 do the trick or should I really upgrade the 110 as well.

-----Go with two 250's.

Markus
---------
Posted on: 26 March 2003 by Mr Underhill
Just had my gear serviced - it is all about 20 years old AND sounds marvellous.

I must admit that I've never travelled the olive route, as I preffered the sound quality of the chrome bumper....but, listening to the pre-amp section of the AV2 has got me wondering.

While agreeing with Rico, that life is uncertain and you spend a long time dead, my only qualification would be that whatever you spend on a new piece of kit would buy a lot of software, and it's the music that this is all about, isn't it?
Posted on: 27 March 2003 by gusi
Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I think Bob hit the nail on the head, "Can you afford it".

The reason that I am questioning the next round of upgrades is that the costs go up a lot. It seems that Naim's pricing strategy is to double the price of each upgrade. At some point you just hit prices that are stretching your comfort zone.

A secondary issue would be whether the equipment would be servicable in 10 years time. A broken amp with no spare parts would be worthless. I'll check with Naim what the forecast is for spare parts.

Half of my gear is 20 years old and still going strong. But the idea that parts could run out is a concern, even if Naim has an excellent track record and keeping their beasts going.

I like the sound of the 500 and I am quite curious about the other new gear but haven't really heard the budget items.

The idea of 250 new CDs is very apealling too. I'd struggle to hear them all though, specially more than once. Time is a scarce commodity in Singapore.

But then life is always a balance between real enjoyment now and potential enjoyment later. I'd like to think my balance lies more in the now than the future but sometimes it is just not so obvious.

Anyway, back to stereo stuff, I'll get send to the padded cell...


One last question: What is the going rate for a 12 year old 52 with PS?

cheers
Gus