Fantasy Beethoven Symphony set

2. Help!

Dear Jeremy,

You have chosen famous and great recordings for you list [apart from the above, of course], and the thing is that even if I would mostly choose different performances on records, that does nothing to invalidate your choices!

If I post a list then it is the choice I would make today and it will certainly be different to last year's favourite top choice, and will be evolving for the rest of my life!

Today:

1. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1963]
2. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1957]
3. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio 1955], with a strong recommendation that you also get Erich Kleiber's performance from 1954 with the VPO in 1954 on Decca
4. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1963]
5. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio 1955]
6. Klemperer/Vienna Symphony Orchestra [Vox studio, early fifties, available on Vox CD]. Also recommend Karl Boehm/VPO in 1970s DG studio.
7. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1957]
8. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1963]
9, Choral. Klemperer/Philharmonia [live Testament/BBC in RFH 1961]

That has a very considerable degree of consistency, and in each case the performances seem to me to be entirely satisfying. Where some might find more difficulty with these old Klemperer recordings is that apart from the EMI studio recordings from 1955 [and the Vox set of the Pastoral], they are not smooth and clean studio production, but very clear, very well musically balanced radio tapes with audience applause at the end but next to no disturbance in the music itself. They are not beautifully polished recordings but visceral, dry, and sharp, but fine enough to show how subtle and sweet toned was the playing in the interludes of quieter more beautiful music. The forte is without distortion, but definately not a comfortable sonority, and I suspect reflects what Klemperer was aiming for.

Every recording mentioned is mono apart from Boehm's Pastoral recording on DG. The mono Vox recording [of Klemperer with the VSO in the Pastoral] is fair enough [beautifully balanced], but not quite Hifi, and the Decca recording of father Kleiber is very fine studio mono, but strangely small in scale, while the Boehm Vienna Pastoral recording on DG is quite good!

What is not open to doubt is that these Klemperer performances [contrary to the myth of slowness] actually take full note of the Beethoven's Metronome and are often much faster than what is expected in Beethoven from that period. The metronomes are a good guide, and occasionally do indicate something slower than fashionable, such as the Minuet and Trios from the Second and Eighth Symphonies. Naturally enough Klemperer also notes these.

I seriously suggest that if you are stuck for a good Number Two [coupled with a phenomenal performance of the Seventh], look out Klemperer's live Testament recording, which is available on Amazon.co.uk. If you like it you may feel compelled to investigate the others! For once the result of having one conductor leading all of them is actually to emphasis the differences between them. The First is not "sub-prime" Haydn, but young, muscular Beethoven, and not predicting the wisdom and brilliance of his later work! The Second points towards the young Beethoven probing a larger scale, and showing remarkable tenderness in the slow movement.

Each work is probed as if afresh!

George

Hi George,

Thanks, brilliant reply. You really put me on to Klemperer in the first place. I recently got lucky with a haul of mint Mozart and Haydn Symphonies on LP, I really like the clarity which is consistent with Beethoven although I only have the later symphonies. Based on these I can't wait to try the early Beethoven.

I have some problem with the stereo transfers to CD and to some extent the stereo LPs, the master tape distortions that jump from one channel to the other are especially distracting at this level of performance and recording.

Jeremy

Dear Jeremy,

I actually prefer the BBC Radio tapes on Testamant to the sophisticated Stereo recordings accorded to Klemperer in the EMI studio. I actually find stereo on orchestral music is never other than a musically inherently damaging phenomenon. Another distraction ...

Chamber Music can be different in this regard.

The Choral Symphony in the live 1961 concert is uniquely powerful! Maybe you could try that next to see how much more successful Klemperer was at his best in concerts compared to in the studio.

Have fun with this! George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I actually prefer the BBC Radio tapes on Testamant to the sophisticated Stereo recordings accorded to Klemperer in the EMI studio. I actually find stereo on orchestral music is never other than a musically inherently damaging phenomenon. Another distraction ...
George

Whether in mono or stereo or even stereo surround, a recording can never be other than an abstraction of the interpretation. Somtimes idealized, if much editing hsve taken place. IMO the most important preferences concerning the acoustics of a recording are the true natural balance and ambience. And the question of stereo as opposed to mono is relatively unimportant, as many mono recordings demonstrate a more natural balance than some stereo recordings. But eventually it is of course the interpretation, which is decisive for one´s purchase, and you must accept the sound, whether it is good or not.

1 - Bernstein / NYPO
2 - Reiner / PSO
3 - Giulini / LAPO
4 - C Kleiber / Concertgebouw
5 - Toscanini / NBCSO
6 - C Kleiber / Bavarian State Orch
7 - Abbado / BPO
8 - Walter / NYPO
9 - Munch / BSO


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Personally I have heard lots of versions but my favourite is Karajan. [maybe because it was the first version I heard ??].

Also I only like the odd numberred ones [excluding number one] .. so 3,5,7,9.

I really like the Listz piano versions.

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Gone but not forgotten.

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Well, Runnicles and the Atlanta Symphony are quite incredible in the 9th. Jochum/LSO is also special, though poorly recorded. I also like Mackerras/RLPO or Philharmonia and Davis/Dresden.

Haitink's recent LSO Live cycle I found rather disappointing and dull, the only exception being and incredible disc of 4 and 8.

I grew up on Kleiber's disc of 5 and 7 but have cooled to it recently. Not least because there is a botched edit between the third and fourth movements of the 5th (which never bothered me until someone pointed it out). I heard Barenboim perform the 5th live with his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra and it was incredible (it is available on CD) and I didn't think it could be beaten until I heard Mackerras with the SCO (also on available on CD). I also live how driven Solti is, though that reading isn't to all tastes.

A few years ago I heard Daniel Harding conduct a thrilling seventh, which had an absolutely breakneck finale. Again, I didn't anyone could top that, but at over 80, Mackerras somehow managed it.

As far as the Erioca is concerned, Furtwangler/VPO in 1944 is stunning, as too is Jochum/LSO.

The 8th is a favourite of mine. Mackerras is wonderful, Haitink as mentioned above, and Davis, who does something very special and makes this a weighty, Mahlerian almost, journey.

I've never cared hugely for the 6th. Erick Kleiber and the RCO is probably my favourite. Mackerras/SCO was also special - the balance of the winds in the 3rd movement and the textures of the storm in the 4th.

Mackerras, where I haven't already mentioned him, is always worth hearing, his wonderfully fresh recordings show me new things every time I listen. The RLPO set on EMI is dirt cheap, the SCO/Philharmonia recordings made in Edinburgh in 2006 were some of the most extraordinary concerts it has been my privilege to attend. Sadly the BBC no longer seems to hire competent broadcast engineers and the recordings issued on Hyperion are a dry and pale shadow lacking detail in comparison. Jochum's DG cycle and Davis's Dresden one are also extremely satisfying.


regards, Tam


p.s. In answer to the original post, my fantasy set was the Edinburgh festival performances of 2006 led by Mackerras, would that they had been more competently recorded.

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:

Whether in mono or stereo or even stereo surround, a recording can never be other than an abstraction of the interpretation. Somtimes idealized, if much editing hsve taken place. IMO the most important preferences concerning the acoustics of a recording are the true natural balance and ambience. And the question of stereo as opposed to mono is relatively unimportant, as many mono recordings demonstrate a more natural balance than some stereo recordings. But eventually it is of course the interpretation, which is decisive for one´s purchase, and you must accept the sound, whether it is good or not.

I entirely entirely agree. The important aspect is the musical interpretational one, and then one must hope that the recording [mono/stereo/stereo-surround] should, with luck, follow musical priciples of lucid balancing, and is actually of no significance at all terms of choosing any particular recording beyond musical considerations. IMO of course!

George

i suppose i would best hear a local orchestra take a crack at one of his works, but it would certainly be great to get some of these in vinyl. anybody have any idea if any of the suggested works are in such versions (new as opposed to used, which is subject to lady luck)?