Why we all hear different music
Posted by: mikeeschman on 09 April 2009
My daughter Kristen is in town visiting from San Diego for Easter. We spend a decent amount of time listening to music, and everyone in this family loves to talk. Sometimes especially to talk of music.
Kristen says she hears the harmony first. For her, the feeling special to the music rises from the harmony.
I can listen that way if I work at it, but it's not something that comes natural.
Left to my own devices, I hear all the different lines, the melodies as they move the music forward in time, and the harmony comes in a hair later, like the wake of a boat. The harmony blooms after the articulations, a reflection off the horizontal movement.
It seems the rhythm moves horizontally like melody, not vertically like harmony.
I am trying to train my ear to follow every line in a score. That should maximize the experience :-)
How about you?
Kristen says she hears the harmony first. For her, the feeling special to the music rises from the harmony.
I can listen that way if I work at it, but it's not something that comes natural.
Left to my own devices, I hear all the different lines, the melodies as they move the music forward in time, and the harmony comes in a hair later, like the wake of a boat. The harmony blooms after the articulations, a reflection off the horizontal movement.
It seems the rhythm moves horizontally like melody, not vertically like harmony.
I am trying to train my ear to follow every line in a score. That should maximize the experience :-)
How about you?
Posted on: 11 April 2009 by fred simon
Another answer to Mike's original question ... for me, it's gotta have melody and harmony to really move me to my core. Melody and harmony are primary.
Best,
Fred
Posted on: 11 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by Florestan:
Skilled listening is essential and very beneficial whether you listen or play but with playing your listening skills will determine the outcome.
Best Regards,
i think with playing hearing it before you play it is the critical skill.
Hearing in your mind's ear what you should be about to play is crucial, then play it, and with accute listening with very good hearing, if it is wrong, correct it so fast no one could spot the flaw!
This a is a continuous process throughout the perfromance, and is how all instruments except the ready tuned ones - like the keyboard instruments and fretted ones like guitars more or less - are played in tune!
ATB from George
Posted on: 11 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Hearing in your mind's ear what you should be about to play is crucial, then play it, and with accute listening with very good hearing, if it is wrong, correct it so fast no one could spot the flaw!
This a is a continuous process throughout the performance, and is how all instruments except the ready tuned ones - like the keyboard instruments and fretted ones like guitars more or less - are played in tune!
ATB from George
spot on george!
i am going into a funk. i brought my daughter to the airport this afternoon. no father should have to do that.
i am going to listen to boulez/vienna mahler no. 2 right now. they are so ON IT, i can't believe my ears. it is a perfect realization!
this doesn't happen often enough.
i miss reading your music posts george. how about 600 words or so?
Posted on: 12 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Another answer to Mike's original question ... for me, it's gotta have melody and harmony to really move me to my core. Melody and harmony are primary.
Best,
Fred
hopefully you always get melody and harmony.
when listening to a theme and variations, it is good practice to keep your ears on the theme, and the harmony tends to happen around the melodic variation. but i have to listen to bruckner symphonies (i'm thinking of the 8th) with a close ear on the harmonic structure or it "falls apart" to me.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by mikeeschman
I've run across a recording that seems to illustrate my response to melody and harmony of the moment :
Prokofiev Violin Sonatas
Shlomo Mintz - Yefim Bronfman
DGG 423575 from ArkivMusic.com
It's beautifully played throughout with an intonation and sense of rhythm I cannot fault.
The recorded piano sound is as good as I have ever heard, if not better. The sound of the violin is the most colorful I have heard.
The frequency range extends from low F on the piano to the upper reaches of the violin, and the voices are often many octaves separated.
In the first and fourth movements of the first sonata, you can hear melody in one voice and harmony in another more than once.
Another obvious unifying technique in these movements is to associate different rhythmic patterns to each voice, then let the voices "pass" melodies.
The First sonata is all I can take in one sitting.
Give it a listen.
Prokofiev Violin Sonatas
Shlomo Mintz - Yefim Bronfman
DGG 423575 from ArkivMusic.com
It's beautifully played throughout with an intonation and sense of rhythm I cannot fault.
The recorded piano sound is as good as I have ever heard, if not better. The sound of the violin is the most colorful I have heard.
The frequency range extends from low F on the piano to the upper reaches of the violin, and the voices are often many octaves separated.
In the first and fourth movements of the first sonata, you can hear melody in one voice and harmony in another more than once.
Another obvious unifying technique in these movements is to associate different rhythmic patterns to each voice, then let the voices "pass" melodies.
The First sonata is all I can take in one sitting.
Give it a listen.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by Wolf2
Mike I just had a Sunday at Wagner's Walkure oper of the Ring. WOWWWW!
I've always been a little reserved about his works, but the melodies, and he just carries you away with beautiful music. The staging was just as incredible with a cartoonish, in a good sense, figures and staging by Achim freyer. Total fantasy land of the gods. I finally just got carried away on every note and every lyric. Just a stunning achievement.
I've always been a little reserved about his works, but the melodies, and he just carries you away with beautiful music. The staging was just as incredible with a cartoonish, in a good sense, figures and staging by Achim freyer. Total fantasy land of the gods. I finally just got carried away on every note and every lyric. Just a stunning achievement.
Posted on: 14 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Another answer to Mike's original question ... for me, it's gotta have melody and harmony to really move me to my core. Melody and harmony are primary.
hopefully you always get melody and harmony.
Is that your wish for me, or are you saying that most music has these?
If the former, thank you. If the latter, well, sometimes but not always.
Best,
Fred
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Another answer to Mike's original question ... for me, it's gotta have melody and harmony to really move me to my core. Melody and harmony are primary.
hopefully you always get melody and harmony.
Is that your wish for me, or are you saying that most music has these?
If the former, thank you. If the latter, well, sometimes but not always.
Best,
Fred
i was saying most music has these.
i'm trying to figure out which of my legs you are pulling.
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by mikeeschman
Looking for other music that would allow the listener to inspect music in each of its elements. That is you could listen to a piece and focus on intonation, rhythm, melody or harmony, any one, and be rewarded with a beautiful evening.
And after a few listens, try some combinations.
Build up to hearing them all.
That's a different story from a first listen :-)
So here's my pick tonight :
Bach Brandenburg Concertos
Il Giardino Armonico
on a Teldec CD
4509-98442-2
The acoustic is spacious and live, just shy of bright. The instruments are recorded faithfully, and have particularly convincing articulation. Dynamics are, well dynamic.
The playing is always just a hair beyond your wildest expectations :-)
I like these very much.
So we are doing 1 a night for awhile.
I can feel my ears growing ...
And after a few listens, try some combinations.
Build up to hearing them all.
That's a different story from a first listen :-)
So here's my pick tonight :
Bach Brandenburg Concertos
Il Giardino Armonico
on a Teldec CD
4509-98442-2
The acoustic is spacious and live, just shy of bright. The instruments are recorded faithfully, and have particularly convincing articulation. Dynamics are, well dynamic.
The playing is always just a hair beyond your wildest expectations :-)
I like these very much.
So we are doing 1 a night for awhile.
I can feel my ears growing ...
Posted on: 15 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by fred simon:quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Another answer to Mike's original question ... for me, it's gotta have melody and harmony to really move me to my core. Melody and harmony are primary.
hopefully you always get melody and harmony.
Is that your wish for me, or are you saying that most music has these?
If the former, thank you. If the latter, well, sometimes but not always.
Best,
Fred
i was saying most music has these.
i'm trying to figure out which of my legs you are pulling.
All three of them!
Actually, none of them.
Fred
Posted on: 16 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Actually, none of them.
if you have melody, then you have harmony, as the melody is in some key (or other tonal center) excepting atonal music, and a melody always has the potential to move from one key to another (look for accidentals and key signature changes).
but you can have harmony without melody. incidental music such as music for scene changes in an opera are sometimes absent melody
(Britten's Billy Budd).
this is all about bringing my ears back up to spec after a long period of neglect.
Posted on: 16 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
if you have melody, then you have harmony
A melodic line without accompaniment can only imply harmony, and the implications can vary greatly and are often subjective.
Best,
Fred
Posted on: 16 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
if you have melody, then you have harmony
A melodic line without accompaniment can only imply harmony, and the implications can vary greatly and are often subjective.
Best,
Fred
Yes, an unaccompanied melody offers up harmony as a pale reflection, often recognized after the fact and not in "real time" as accompanied melody can be.
I am exploring this by listening to some specific music.
Tonight I begin with Perlman doing J.S. Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for violin - other music to follow ...
Posted on: 17 April 2009 by mikeeschman
You have to look no further than J. S. Bach Sonata No. 1 for Violin, IV. Presto, to find an unaccompanied melody (no double stops in this movement) that has a clear, unmistakable harmonic framework. Extensive scale and arpeggio passages anchor the movement harmonically.
Posted on: 17 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
You have to look no further than J. S. Bach Sonata No. 1 for Violin, IV. Presto, to find an unaccompanied melody (no double stops in this movement) that has a clear, unmistakable harmonic framework.
Yes, or in any of Bach's solo cello suites, which I love.
The harmonic implications are very strong, and very clear. However, since there is no actual stated harmony, one could reharmonize them to interesting effect ... that might be fun.
Best,
Fred
Posted on: 17 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:
Yes, or in any of Bach's solo cello suites, which I love.
i am giving the cello suites a try for the first time this weekend :-)
Posted on: 18 April 2009 by mikeeschman
after spending all last night fixing computer programs that blew up, i am ready for some new music.
i picked up the mercury living presence recordings by janos starker of the bach suites for solo cello, and the two cd earwitness transcriptions collection of great pianists of the past, which has stravinsky playing the piano transcription of the firebird. many other great pianists, such as joseph hoffman, are on this set - it's all fireworks!
i picked up the mercury living presence recordings by janos starker of the bach suites for solo cello, and the two cd earwitness transcriptions collection of great pianists of the past, which has stravinsky playing the piano transcription of the firebird. many other great pianists, such as joseph hoffman, are on this set - it's all fireworks!
Posted on: 19 April 2009 by mikeeschman
I found some music where melody and harmony achieve a perfect union :
Beethoven Quartet in Eb Major, Opus 127
Quartet in C# Minor, Opus 131
and this was the first time a Beethoven String Quartet ever "got" to me.
So this melody/harmony discourse has improved my ear, I think, and opened it to new and different music.
Beethoven Quartet in Eb Major, Opus 127
Quartet in C# Minor, Opus 131
and this was the first time a Beethoven String Quartet ever "got" to me.
So this melody/harmony discourse has improved my ear, I think, and opened it to new and different music.
Posted on: 19 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
I have known and loved these late Beethoven Quartets since my early teens.
Always prefered them to the Piano Sonatas, though I am never disappointed by listening to either!
Good on you for finding the Quartets.
May I point you to the Opus 135 and 132 Quartets, which are two of my very particular favourites.
May I also suggest you look out for the recordings that the Busch Quartet made for HMV in London before 1939, and in my view only approached in quality by the early mono [post War] tapings of the Budapest Quartet. Both these sets have benefitted from the best of modern transfer techniques to CD, so the actual sound quality is no impediment to appreciating the quality of the performances ...
Great to read of someone making such a discovery!
ATB from George
I have known and loved these late Beethoven Quartets since my early teens.
Always prefered them to the Piano Sonatas, though I am never disappointed by listening to either!
Good on you for finding the Quartets.
May I point you to the Opus 135 and 132 Quartets, which are two of my very particular favourites.
May I also suggest you look out for the recordings that the Busch Quartet made for HMV in London before 1939, and in my view only approached in quality by the early mono [post War] tapings of the Budapest Quartet. Both these sets have benefitted from the best of modern transfer techniques to CD, so the actual sound quality is no impediment to appreciating the quality of the performances ...
Great to read of someone making such a discovery!
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Fred,
It would be interesting, [but somewhat naughty don't you think?] to reharmonise the unaccompanied string suites [partitas, sonatatas, and suites (etc) for cello and violin] by JS Bach as the intention may be by implication but such that these implications are unmistakable such indeed was Bach's genius, his clear vision, and his perfect expression of his clear vision because of his genius!
ATB from George
It would be interesting, [but somewhat naughty don't you think?] to reharmonise the unaccompanied string suites [partitas, sonatatas, and suites (etc) for cello and violin] by JS Bach as the intention may be by implication but such that these implications are unmistakable such indeed was Bach's genius, his clear vision, and his perfect expression of his clear vision because of his genius!
ATB from George