Bach Cello Suites

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Markus

Tam will see this I am sure! He is talking of Rostropovich's reading!

Anner Bylsmer is fascinating and must be a huge contrast to the Starker reading! I have only heard this only once from a cellist friend, who insisted I listen to, as he put it, 'the most incredible cello playing!'

I know Tam loves the Rostropovich set the best, and I want to stick in a word for Pierre Fournier! On DG, and old enough to be inexpensive. He is the least demonstrive player yet mentioned, but I like that. He seems to stealthily reach straight into my heart with his playing. His tone is so variegated and his style catches the gentle lilt of the dance, so that one suddenly find the music is over without once one's concentration drifting off. Great music making in my view!

Time for bed now for me, but have fun with your decision.

All the best from Fredrik

PS: Tam beat me to it! And I am off topic. Never mind. Goodnight from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

You know me too well!

regards, Tam

Dear Markus,

I was beaten to it twice! Fredrik the painfully slow!

Dear Fredrik,

Sorry - I really have no right to be this alert at this time of night!

regards, Tam

p.s. I read elsewhere of an account of the works made on a bass (which I would imagine, given the number of strings, might be somewhat trickier). Are you able to shed any light?

Dear Tam,

It is an unfortunate habit (best left firmly in the closet in my view) to try to play this music on the bass, and it is actually impossible, because the strings are tuned in fourths, and not the violincello's fifths, thus the chordings are rendered unplayable, and the breadth of tone of the cello is not carried forward, but a darker (if never-the-less splendid) tone emerges, which has nothing to do with the music's requirements at all. Worst of all, to obviate the most disasterous problems an arrangement (there are several) is always used, leaving out notes here and adding others elsewhere to keep it sounding reasonably musical. A great player will make an entertaining show of playing them on the bass, but I call it a freak show!

And yes, I would play some of slower music myself, but only in private! You need to be a bass viruoso to play even the half of it actually! It is tremendous practice for building sonority on the bass, because of the requirements for very slow bowing, because the bass bow is only two thirds as long! A useful excercise for bass players in private really!

Maybe I should start a little Thread on real solo music for the bass, some of which is rather good!

ATB from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

Thanks for this fascinating and informative post, as ever.

As to a thread on solo music for the bass - I would very much like to read that. The bass is a wonderful sounding instrument, but one rarely hears it in a prominent role, though have heard one in one or two chamber concerts in the last couple of years, and of course it has a key role at the start of the 3rd movement of Mahler's first symphony.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
It is an unfortunate habit (best left firmly in the closet in my view) to try to play this music on the bass, and it is actually impossible, because the strings are tuned in fourths, and not the violincello's fifths, thus the chordings are rendered unplayable, and the breadth of tone of the cello is not carried forward, but a darker (if never-the-less splendid) tone emerges, which has nothing to do with the music's requirements at all. Worst of all, to obviate the most disasterous problems an arrangement (there are several) is always used, leaving out notes here and adding others elsewhere to keep it sounding reasonably musical. A great player will make an entertaining show of playing them on the bass, but I call it a freak show!

Dear Fredrik

The eventual technical problems were certainly no obstacle for Bach to arrange his music for other instruments. and of course he made idiomatic alterations of the original score to make the music suit the other instrument as natural as possible, but some of his arrangements of his violin concertos for harpsichord are still more difficult to play on harpsichord than the violin original on violin, if you can compare two so different instruments at all. He is reported to have been fond of playing his suites for violoncello solo on clavichord (and probably this extends to harpsichord as well), and he certainly altered the notes and adapted the music to the actual instrument instead of playing the original score litterally.

But the character of the sound of the bass as opposed to the violoncello is another matter. Are the cellosuites suitable to be transposed an octave downwards? Will the musical texture become too blurred? I think: No, but I admit, that other instruments are more suitable for arrangement of the cellosuites viewed from that angle, first and foremost the viola and the viola da gamba. But there are examples of many other successful arrangements for lute, harpsichord and flute. And I even admit, that I find it interesting to hear a bass played solo in this way, as the litterature for bass solo is very sparse to my knowledge.

Regards,

The version for bass that I have, has Edgar Meyer playing and it is a favourite disc. I love Casals as this is how I was introduced to this music and I think both Fournier and Rostrapovich have merit. I used to like Starker but now find it aggressive, there are other wonderful versions but on a desert island I would have dear old Pau and Edgar for some light relief.

I, for one, am quite smitten with the recently re-released Starker LP set. There still isn't anything like vinyl, particularly for the deep sonority of the cello. I also have the first two suites played by Jacqueline DuPre in a multiple CD life's retrospective on EMI. Loverly.

Norman

Famous writer, noblist, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who is know as a music lover, wrote that if he have to choose only one record, it would be 1st cello suites. He added that he prefer interpretation of Casals. But know (it was 1982 when he wrote those words) he prefered Maurice Gendron (for Philips - philips 442 293-2 in cheap series called 'duo'). the essey was named "let's talk about music" (it is my translation from polish version, sorry if the english title is different).

There seems to have been yet another Starker version. About 5 years ago, I bought a French EMI 4-disk ADD stereo set of the cello suites by Starker and solo violin pieces played by Johanna Martzy. At less than £10 in an HMV sale, I couldn't resist it. I don't know where and when they were recorded but the Starker set is as fiery as any I could imagine. Otherwise, Rostropovich, Fournier and Schiff also give very fine performances. I've only heard bits and pieces of the Gendron and Casals recordings, but these too seemed ones I would happily live with.

Prompted by this thread, I dug out Morten Zeuthen's account (a kind gift from pe-zulu) and listened to the first suite. Once again, I am reminded why they could so easily be a favourite (and but for personal taste they probably would be). He plays without the mannerisms that can get in the way of the music and yet there is still plenty of beauty and emotion. Where Yo Yo Ma falls down for me is that while there is much on display in technical terms, it leaves me cold in comparison to other readings. I suspect that is why I love Rostropovich, he wrings the emotion out of every bar (the Furtwangler of the cello in this instance, perhaps). Zeuthen doesn't, he much more lets the music speak for itself, but there is nothing clinical here. Perhaps his period instrument helps in the sound (it certainly is very fine), but this is a fine artist and a fine disc, and a worthy addition to any library. What a shame it isn't more widely available.

regards, Tam

Dear pe-zulu,

I promise to address the issue of the playability of the bass in solo music when I do the Thread hatching in my head! I really am not convinced it is any more realist to try to play these suits on the bass than Bach's harpsichord music on the piano. It is possble. It may even yield great results, but the instrument is one huge handicap!

More to follow at the weekend... ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear pe-zulu,
I promise to address the issue of the playability of the bass in solo music when I do the Thread hatching in my head!

Dear Fredrik

I look very much forward to that.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Heinrich Schiff's set.

I also have the live performances of Suites 2, 3, 4 and 5 recorded in Oct 1971 by the late great, but virtually unknown, Russian cellist Daniil Shafran. These were issued on a single CD by the short-lived Revelation label a few years ago and should be heard by anyone who loves Bach and great cello playing.

Graham

Dear Graham,
Tam has indeed mentioned Schiff´s set above in this thread, and even I - in another thread, and we both think, it is very recommendable. I find especially his rhytmic vitality appealing, as I stress the importance of a strong rhytm in these works.
I know the live performance of the late Schafran, you mention, too. I don´t like it - find it laboured and romantic. Something in the middle of Casals and Rostropovitch. If you want the suites played in this way, I think Rostropovitch offers a more satisfying approach.
Regards,

Graham,
And even I gave Schiff a plug (above). What's more, his set is now on an inexpensive EMI label. A bit frustrating for those of us who paid full price, but a marvellous bargain for anyone who did not.
Cheers,
Ken

As pe-zulu says, I mentioned Schiff in my very first post - and what a wonderful set it is and given, as Ken mentiones, it is now available at budget price there is really no excuse for not picking it up.

I heard him live at the Edinburgh festival a few years ago (and he was meant to be coming this year, at least according to the preliminary information, but this has sadly fallen through for some reason) and he was a wonderfully charismatic performer (a real joy to watch as well as listen to). And, for the most part, those qualities come across well on the CD too (though of course it's never quite the same).

Actually, I've been listening to this a fair amount lately (along with the Zeuthen) and I'm no longer sure I have a favourite between these and the Rostropovich (just as well I don't have to choose just one, then).

regards, Tam

Well, f*ck me, boys, I must be going blind! Sorry, chaps! I have the Schiff set on one of EMI's first CD releases, pressed in Japan. I haven't heard better, but confess not to having heard all those mentioned on this thread.

Can't agree with pe-zulu in the dissing of Daniil Shafran, though.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:

Personally, I find Ma technically excellent but lacking in a degree of soul.

Really? I find Yo Yo Ma's musicianship incredibly soulful. I think he's a funny, funky dude, and full of deep, bittersweet music and soul.

Not implying any accusation here, but I do wonder why this criticism is so often applied to musicians of Asian descent. Is it ethnocentrism? I mean, lord knows there are certainly legions of Russians who are technically brilliant but lacking soul.

Just wondering ... is there anything to this?

Fred

Dear Fred,

There are musicians of Asian descent I absolutely adore (Mitsuko Uchida would be a key example, but there are others). However, when put next to the others I mention, Ma seems lacking. But, each to their own.

Out of interest, which of Ma's two readings do you have? I have the later ('98, I believe), so possibly this is the explanation.

I certainly agree that there are musicians from all nationalities who are technically fine but lacking in soul. For what it's worth, I've rather enjoyed Ma's Silk Road ensemble, and he did introduce me to his work. The critique in my first post was aimed specifically at the cello suites recording I have, not at his entire musicianship and I don't think I've heard enough of his stuff to generalise from that.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:

Out of interest, which of Ma's two readings do you have? I have the later ('98, I believe), so possibly this is the explanation.

I'm not sure why the later work would be less soulful ... usually, as musicians age they trade a little technical mastery for a more soulful interpretation. I'd also assume that unless Ma felt the latter was an improvement over the former he wouldn't have released it.

In any case, I've heard both, and the later recording is superior to the first in every way: musically, technically, even a better sounding recording.

Fred