Another Weiss 202 vs nDAC comparison
Posted by: Briz Vegas on 28 July 2010
I had a Weiss 202 and a Naim DAC in my house recently on my non Naim system. How did they compare A B? You are going to hate this bit.
Well as luck would have it the Naim link plug was missing so I only heard the 202 on the day before making my decision. I had to use my less than perfect memory to recall the sound of the Naim from a few weeks ago when I had it running via firewire from my Mac at home.
So half of you will have tuned out because I did not do an A B test. For those of you still reading I guess you are wondering what my conclusions were. Well first off any comparison has to be considered in the context of my system and my room. ie, you need to do your own comparison as my opinion is based on what I heard in my room.
You can read my thoughts on a direct A B of the Naim and the DAC 2 in an earlier thread. I concluded in that comparison that the Naim was a clear winner, or words to that effect.
For the 202 comparison I compared like with like from a cost and interface perspective. The Weiss 202 and the Naim DAC cost about the same because I was using the Weiss firewire interface (in the guise of a DAC2 for the earlier Naim home demo) and Nordost digital cables. The same firewire cable was used for both DACs.
The Weiss 202 DAC sounded great. Both are great DACs but they did not sound similar to my ears. Each had their own character and I think you are likely to prefer one sound over the other. I found one was significantly more satisfying than the other, despite the time gap between auditions.
Which did I prefer? I now own a Naim DAC and have the Weiss firewire interface on order. Funny thing is that Weiss win either way as both setups relied on Weiss hardware.
The Naim DAC via firewire is definitely special in my opinion. It still sounds great using another transports but I am looking forward to the arrival of the Weiss interface, thats for sure.
Partnering equipment - Nordost Odin and Brahma power cords, Jas power trip, 6mm dedicated power circuit for the system, Conrad Johnson ca200 amp, Nordost Tyr interconnect and Frey speaker cable, Aluminium cone feet and constrained layer platform, extensive Fonics acoustic room treatments. B&W 804s speakers. Lots of music -(alternative, pop, rock, jazz, classical, folk, world, blues).
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by js
The Naim is the best Dac that I've experienced. The Weiss int202 interface is the best utilization of the DICE II chip that I've heard. Don't be surprised if things get even better with the dedicated interface. I haven't heard the DAC202 but your findngs fall right into line with my expectations that the INT202 plus Naim DAC would be hard to beat for that utilization. That said, I think the DAC202 is a great tool for a more portable headphone capable device and I'm sure very good.
There's always room for preferences but I suspect most here are comforted by that review as opposed to hate it. I also think it good to get that perspective from a non-naimie without brand bias one way or another.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by DHT
In the Naim /Weiss 202 comparison I heard a Weiss INT202 was also used,and the Naim dac definitely sounded at it's best through firewire, unfortunately it's best fell a long way short of the Weiss 202.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by John R.
This is finally a good review (not simply because the Naim DAC is the winner) and the end result is what I consider to have, too. I appreciate that the review points out that both DACs have a different sound character and this is probably more true than saying that one DAC (no matter which one) is a different league. The INT 202 firewire to S/PDIF converter looks very interesting to me and seems to be another good option for connecting PC/Mac to the DAC. Besides that one can consider the Wavelink asyncronous USB to S/PDIF converter, too, when one prefers USB over Firewire... Good to have a few options to choose from
Thanks to these dedicated converters one can have a great sounding streaming solution based on PC or Mac without the need to buy a HDX or UnitiServe. It is about time that Naim comes up with such a converter!
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by AMA
quote:
The INT 202 firewire to S/PDIF converter looks very interesting to me and seems to be another good option for connecting PC/Mac to the DAC. Besides that one can consider the Wavelink asyncronous USB to S/PDIF converter, too when one prefers USB over Firewire... Good to have a few options to choose from
You can also add Hiface and Evo to the basket.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by AMA
Briz, did you use nDAC bare or with external PS?
Did you compare them on 16/44 or hi-res?
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by AMA
Allen, I remember your wonderful posts on INT202 and it would be a good contribution to hear from you on Evo (USB) vs INT202 (Firewire) into your system. Given a price difference the Evo solution can seduce a lot of us (already did).
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by JYOW
I could be wrong in this. My opinion is that fronting the nDAC with a high end interface like the INT202, would still be subjecting the whole chain to S/PDIF which, in the very first place, is a bottleneck that the whole async Firewire/USB exercise is trying to eliminate.
That why after changing from the WEISS DAC2 to nDAC, I thought long and hard about getting an INT202 to reintroduce my Mac to DAC, but somehow I just could not justify spending that kind of money only to be converted back to S/PDIF. So I bought the HiFace instead as a stop gap.
I read the white paper about Naim’s rationale about avoiding USB/Firewire introducing noise to the circuit and recommended users to use a sound card or an external box. To me that is a bit of a “chicken-out”. Naim can never control an external box which during the conversion process, is in theory still exposed to the same noise that it is trying to avoid. And in terms of electrical noise, I believe that the Firewire chain that the Weiss DAC either does not use the power pin OR the power pin can be eliminated with a simple cable hack. In any case I thought the result speaks for itself.
I agree though that the devil is in the implementation and I am sure the INT202-nDAC combo sounds wonderful. In my case the HiFace-nDAC combo was good but *my opinion* of the DAC202 *in my own system* is that the 202 is a lot more open sounding. The bottleneck could be the HiFace who knows.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by js
What dif does it make how you get to nirvana. Results (which can vary per individual) are all that matters. Jyow, your scenario is only valid if the dac circuits are equal and a direct computer connection is your only source.
Posted on: 29 July 2010 by james n
quote:
t's good to see some direct comparisons surfacing now, some will prefer Weiss, some Naim, but IMO, it involves many more considerations than purely SQ as to which route one follows. TBH, I still feel Naim has a little catching up to do, mainly because they are still developing the range of products, but in this instance they are pitched against the combined might of Apple / Weiss / PM.
Posted on: 29 July 2010 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by js:
What dif does it make how you get to nirvana. Results (which can vary per individual) are all that matters. Jyow, your scenario is only valid if the dac circuits are equal and a direct computer connection is your only source.
Yes been using computer for music playing 99% for ages. Silver disc player only used for occasional movie watching or when I get bored and try to play a CD/SACD to see if the player still works.
Indeed like I said the devil is in the implementation. js have you listened to the DAC202?
Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by james n:
quote:
t's good to see some direct comparisons surfacing now, some will prefer Weiss, some Naim, but IMO, it involves many more considerations than purely SQ as to which route one follows. TBH, I still feel Naim has a little catching up to do, mainly because they are still developing the range of products, but in this instance they are pitched against the combined might of Apple / Weiss / PM.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail?
Posted on: 30 July 2010 by Briz Vegas
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
Briz, did you use nDAC bare or with external PS?
Did you compare them on 16/44 or hi-res?
It was a pre-purchase comparison and I had a set budget in mind so the nDAC was bare to fit that budget. The comparison was done with my music which is CD based (but from the MAC hard drive) and I used Pure Music in both comparisons.
I could not argue with the comments about the 202 having an open sound. It certainly does but of course that is only part of the overall sound . What matters to me is the sum of those parts and how that fits in with getting the musical message across.
What the Naim did for me was connect me to the music I was listening to. It got me thinking about the piano that was being played, or the vocals that I was hearing, it took the hifi out of the equation.
Maybe in another system the results could be different. The Conrad Johnson is a wonderfully expressive amp, the cables certainly let the detail through and the room has gone through alot of iterations, each adding clarity and more energy to the sound. The nDAC does a nice job of building on those characteristics, and maybe the fuller sound helps the 804s to fill my room better. Before this I had been toying with the idea of moving on from my current speakers because I thought they might be a weak link.
Posted on: 30 July 2010 by rich2513
quote:
Originally posted by Briz Vegas:
I had a Weiss 202 and a Naim DAC in my house recently on my non Naim system. How did they compare A B? You are going to hate this bit.
Well as luck would have it the Naim link plug was missing so I only heard the 202 on the day before making my decision. I had to use my less than perfect memory to recall the sound of the Naim from a few weeks ago when I had it running via firewire from my Mac at home.
So half of you will have tuned out because I did not do an A B test. For those of you still reading I guess you are wondering what my conclusions were. Well first off any comparison has to be considered in the context of my system and my room. ie, you need to do your own comparison as my opinion is based on what I heard in my room.
You can read my thoughts on a direct A B of the Naim and the DAC 2 in an earlier thread. I concluded in that comparison that the Naim was a clear winner, or words to that effect.
For the 202 comparison I compared like with like from a cost and interface perspective. The Weiss 202 and the Naim DAC cost about the same because I was using the Weiss firewire interface (in the guise of a DAC2 for the earlier Naim home demo) and Nordost digital cables. The same firewire cable was used for both DACs.
The Weiss 202 DAC sounded great. Both are great DACs but they did not sound similar to my ears. Each had their own character and I think you are likely to prefer one sound over the other. I found one was significantly more satisfying than the other, despite the time gap between auditions.
Which did I prefer? I now own a Naim DAC and have the Weiss firewire interface on order. Funny thing is that Weiss win either way as both setups relied on Weiss hardware.
The Naim DAC via firewire is definitely special in my opinion. It still sounds great using another transports but I am looking forward to the arrival of the Weiss interface, thats for sure.
Partnering equipment - Nordost Odin and Brahma power cords, Jas power trip, 6mm dedicated power circuit for the system, Conrad Johnson ca200 amp, Nordost Tyr interconnect and Frey speaker cable, Aluminium cone feet and constrained layer platform, extensive Fonics acoustic room treatments. B&W 804s speakers. Lots of music -(alternative, pop, rock, jazz, classical, folk, world, blues).
What did the Weiss sound like in comparison to the nDAC ?
Posted on: 01 August 2010 by Briz Vegas
In my system the Weiss came across as more detached (less involving) and slightly on the lean side for my taste. In comparison the Naim sound was more tangible and what I would call present. The Weiss did the hifi sound well, but the Naim helped me forget about that side of things.
Some people are good at describing every aspect of a sound, where as I am not so good. I also find that people can point out characteristics but its the overall sound that is most important, partly because what happens in one aspect of the sound, like a recessed midrange for example, sets the context for the rest of the sound.
I found the two DACs to be two different tools for the job. Which one is for you will depend on taste and your system. This is interesting in one sense, simply because it demonstrated that not all DACs sound the same, and both were quite different from my old CD5x with flatcap.
Posted on: 01 August 2010 by rich2513
ok thanks Briz
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by Briz Vegas
UPDATE: The Weiss INT202 firewire interface has arrived.
Thoughts after 24 hours. Oh this is very very nice. This is at least as good as my demo impressions- lots n lots of detail without sounding digital, wonderful tonality, gets the musical message across loud and clear. I am sure that for me and my system this is the right DAC.
CD quality - rips sound excellent, very pleased with the outcome at this resolution.
High def - I am still fighting with the Linn 24/88.2 album (file) I downloaded so I can't report on high def yet. Silly me downloaded the WMA version because my brain was thinking WAV - now I can't make the conversion program work without crashing even after "fixing" it as recommended on the website. Tried the FLAC demo and could not get the 3rd party converter to work on that one either. Once I work this out I will post my impressions.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by John R.
Thanks for keeping us updated... I am very interested in your solution. Personally I can not decide between Wavelink and INT202 at the moment: Both seem to be good
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by ferenc
quote:
Originally posted by John R.:
Thanks for keeping us updated... I am very interested in your solution. Personally I can not decide between Wavelink and INT202 at the moment: Both seem to be good
Do not forget HiFace EVO, very good deal and very close to the higher end firewire solutions. I really like it.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by js
quote:
Originally posted by Briz Vegas:
UPDATE: The Weiss INT202 firewire interface has arrived.
Thoughts after 24 hours. Oh this is very very nice. This is at least as good as my demo impressions- lots n lots of detail without sounding digital, wonderful tonality, gets the musical message across loud and clear. I am sure that for me and my system this is the right DAC.
CD quality - rips sound excellent, very pleased with the outcome at this resolution.
High def - I am still fighting with the Linn 24/88.2 album (file) I downloaded so I can't report on high def yet. Silly me downloaded the WMA version because my brain was thinking WAV - now I can't make the conversion program work without crashing even after "fixing" it as recommended on the website. Tried the FLAC demo and could not get the 3rd party converter to work on that one either. Once I work this out I will post my impressions.
You'd expect it to sound cleary better than the dig out of the DAC2 and probably a bit better than the out from the DAC202. It's only needing to do one thing really well but it could use a better supply. If you have a local Naim dealer, he can contact me about that. Otherwise contact me next week.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by John R.
@ ferenc & js:
I want to connect PC or Mac to my Naim DAC in the best possible way. What would you suggest based on your experience? EVO, INT 202 or Wavelink? I would like to get a sound quality as good as my CDX2-2.
Thanx
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by js
INT202 is best I've heard but is way $$. I haven't tried the EVO. Ferenc may help here.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by naimUnT
The Evo sounds interesting but it requires an external PS, whether wallwart or shunt regulated linear PS. I am sure the quality of the PS is important!
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by ferenc
quote:
Originally posted by naimUnT:
The Evo sounds interesting but it requires an external PS, whether wallwart or shunt regulated linear PS. I am sure the quality of the PS is important!
You can start to use the EVO with a cheap wall wart or battery. Sounds good this way. A good linear PS is an improvement of course, but I could live with the wall wart or a cheap battery if I would not have the linear PS.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by js
It's not like the 202 couldn't use a better supply as well.
Posted on: 08 August 2010 by John R.
Thanks for the answers. Will a INT 202 or EVO offer the same sound quality as a CDX 2-2 when playing PLEXTOR-ripped CDs with a Mac using Amarra?
