Is the Canon EOS 400D any good as a starter SLR?

Start with the 400D and spend the extra money on quality lens for the type of pictures you wish to take. This will be better than a 40D with a stock lens.
That is what I have done.
Trevor

Trevor out of interest what lenses have you bought. Or to put it another way,what is a good replacement for the EFS 18-55?

Olympus has been producing products in the DSLR area now for 5 to 6 years now, they have defined a new open format that other manufacturers are joining in with, and because of the gap when they left the SLR market they did not have to incorporate their legacy lenses like Canikon had to do, so they could develop a standard that was appropriate to digital rather than be compromised by the 35mm requirements which was inherited from double frame movie film.

quote:

Just a warning....the Nikon slope is almost as slippery as the Naim slope.

Tell me about it! The D3 loves fast glass! But what a machine.

Once you get to a reasonable quality of glass (and I don't mean the pro f2.8 lenses which are very expensive) spend all your dosh on a camera with good firmware. It's where all the quality is. And don't be misled by marketing bullshit or idiot forums.

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spend all your dosh on a camera with good firmware

Excellent advice.

Where would you recommend this starts in the Nikon range? D40/60/200/300?

Cheers

Don

Define good firmware please

Damn good question Derek! It's not a measurable statistic and I wouldn't know how to explain in a paragraph. Apart from my own photographs, I have to work with images sent to me from many sources and most of them contain very limited depth to enable good post processing (these are raw files direct from cameras). Many cameras produce raw files that are simply terrible and it's a crime to call them raw. With a good camera such as the D2x, the raw exposure range is about +/- 2 stops (4 stops total) without much increase in noise. This doesn't mean it's ok to shoot an image underexposed by 2 stops and then lighten it in a raw format by 2 stops. It means you can shoot it at the correct exposure and then have 2 stops either way to build up a beautiful, high tonal ranged image.

Don, it definitely wouldn't be the D40 or 60 and I've never seen an image from the 200 or 300.

My advice, (as always in the past, but doubt anyone has taken) is to take your cf cards into any decent shop and ask to stick one in a decent camera such as D2x or D3 and take a couple of raw shots of anything in the shop. Use a flash if you need to. Then stick a card in a camera of your choice and do the same. Go home and compare the tonal ranges/noise in Nikon Capture Nx. It would take me 2 minutes on each image to decide what's good and what's worth the money. It would take you the same.

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Echoing Chris Kelly's comment on Olympus 510 - you can get very reasonably priced E1 cameras on Ebay that have not been used or hardly used at all. They are a good introduction to the 4/3rds system that has several very good advantages eg smaller size and weight than the the Canikon DSLRs, extremely good colour rendering, a range of lenses that cover ones normal needs in perhaps only two units plus the ability to add additional lenses if you get enthusiastic.

Derek/Chris

My one and only SLR was an OM10 which gave me years of pleasure so I have no prob with Olympus.

What do you reckon is a reasonable price for the e-510 2 lens package on ebay? It covers both the lenses I need to keep me happy. I know it is a stupid question, but they do have autofocus don't they?

Diccus

ps. Firmware, what the heck is that

I'm looking to spend less than £400 on a digital SLR.
that's what Diccus said in the starter post.

In the Nikon range, only the D40/60/80 fallinto this price range. The D200/300 are well outside. These are "body-only" prices, or include the "special" lens that's included almost for free - certainly not "good" optics.

My recollection is that the D2x etc are in the £2k to £4k price bracket and the comparable lenses are in the £1k to £2.5k brackets.

So in the Nikon range, what would be a meaningful entry point for somebody who has an eye for a good photo?

Cheers

Don

For E-510 prices take a look at the Digital Depot prices for the products then take a scroll thru E-Bay looking at the Olympus offerings.

I cannot comment on what is good or bad - but if I was buying one that is what I would do.

If that is too much, consider an E-1 and build up your kit with used stuff - using the same rules as buying used HiFI - if you do not get on with it you can sell in the same range you bought it in.

Many a person made their living using an E-1 (and still do)

All the E range have auto focus, the very latest models have Image Stabilisation, again check with the manufacturers web site

cheers Derek. One package has just gone for £377 inc postage on ebay. Jessops do the same for £420+, Amazon is £470+

Diccus
That is a really good price. The "kit" lenses are very good indeed. Unfortunately I was stupid enough to leave mine in my car in December in the same bag as my Leica M* and 5 Leica lenses, and the whole lot were stolen. Hey ho.

But I was looking at the pics I took in Arizona in October and the E510 ones stack up very well next to the Leica ones taken in similar light. I think Olympus do now have a coherent SLR strategy and it is a real system now.

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Use a flash if you need to.

The D3 will work well at ISO6400, so flash not really needed! Amazingly little noise, even at that speed. Undoubtedly the best SLR I have ever owned, since my first Canon EF in 1977.

The D300 works pretty good at high ISO's as well, which is great as I'm not a huge fan of using flash....

Diccus, also remember that camera bodies are replaced with better,cheaper models every year or so. Good glass will still be good glass 5 years from now....

Sandy

Also worth noting the liklihood for digital camera sensors to develop into 'full frame' size - much as we already have with Canon 5D, 1D & now Nikon with the D3. As economies of scale trip in, I suspect that these larger (35mm film size) sensors will be fitted.

The implications of this? Well, as I understand it, the DX labelled lenses, designed specifically to perform with the current mass market small size sensors, may not work so well with full size or 35mm film bodies.

As for size advantages offered by the 3/4 format brought to market by Olympus, Amateur Photographer recently compared the Nikon D300 against its Olympus competitor - the camera bodies were almost identical size & weight, with the Nikon offering demonstrably superior performance.

Neither of these are starter cameras, but like hi-fi, it does no harm to think ahead a little in terms of where you may end up, provided of course you take to photography!

Peter

Peter

I bought the Nikon D40 over the Canon range because I looked at the sample photos and thought they were better and also read that many were not happy with the stock lens on the Canon. I was not interested in buying other lenses so got the D40 for about 270 with a cashback deal. really really pleased with it. It handles well too and has a good grip for those with biggish hands. Fozz

THe Olympus versus Nikon comparison in AP recently - you did not mention the price differential.

Derek
On warehouseexpress.com this morning the D300 is £989 and the E3 £999, both body only.

quote:

Originally posted by northpole:
Also worth noting the liklihood for digital camera sensors to develop into 'full frame' size - much as we already have with Canon 5D, 1D & now Nikon with the D3. As economies of scale trip in, I suspect that these larger (35mm film size) sensors will be fitted.

The implications of this? Well, as I understand it, the DX labelled lenses, designed specifically to perform with the current mass market small size sensors, may not work so well with full size or 35mm film bodies.

As for size advantages offered by the 3/4 format brought to market by Olympus, Amateur Photographer recently compared the Nikon D300 against its Olympus competitor - the camera bodies were almost identical size & weight, with the Nikon offering demonstrably superior performance.

Neither of these are starter cameras, but like hi-fi, it does no harm to think ahead a little in terms of where you may end up, provided of course you take to photography!

Peter

Peter

I think that it'll be a long time before the likes of a 400D and even 40D are equiped with full-frame sensors. The full-frame sensor will probably be developed for the premium market with technology improving the smaller sensor's performance.
Recent comparisons between images from a 400D and 1Ds showed little difference.

Tony

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Originally posted by BigH47:
Trevor out of interest what lenses have you bought. Or to put it another way,what is a good replacement for the EFS 18-55?

I was wondering about this too - my Canon 300D's got the same lens as Howard, but TBH I've never been all that happy with the PQ. Not like my good old Olympus OM-1n!

I've been considering selling it & getting something else but if getting a better lens will do the trick, and the EFS lenses are going to be around for a while, then it might be worthwhile doing that instead.

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Diccus, also remember that camera bodies are replaced with better,cheaper models every year or so. Good glass will still be good glass 5 years from now....

Sandy

Good lenses can, in time, become worth more than the original purchase price. This does tend to be the f2.8 glassware, but worth bearing in mind. A bit like a NAP250?

Tony

For those interested.
Canon is running its usual 'cashback' that crops up every now and again, £100 back from a 40 and £45 from a 400 etc (could be the other way around I didnt check them yesterday - I was more interested in the lenses. Saved myself enough for a 24-70L last year with these Promotions

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BigH47
Trevor out of interest what lenses have you bought. Or to put it another way,what is a good replacement for the EFS 18-55?

I got a 35-105 L IS f4 lens to replace the standard one. And have since added a 70-200 L IS f2.8 zoom a 100-400 L IS f4 zoom and a 16-35 L zoom.
The 2 larger lenses I use for motor sport with the 2 smaller ones for landscapes / general use.
None of these were cheap but they will hopefully outlast me and still be ok for any future change of Canon camera body from the 400D.
I hope the use of zoom lenses does not give the impression I am lazy and prefer to alter the lens rather than actually move....

Trevor

Trevor,

Buy some comfy shoes.....



Tony