The Good News?
Posted by: Adam Meredith on 06 October 2008
People economising on fuel, driving less and buying fewer cars. The cost of transporting distantly produced food and goods is increasing with potential benefits to local suppliers.
Consumption is more considered, house prices are coming down and banks are moderating (unwillingly) their loans and many are being slightly nationalised.
A dose of reality administered by feeding tube - after the patient refused treatment?
Consumption is more considered, house prices are coming down and banks are moderating (unwillingly) their loans and many are being slightly nationalised.
A dose of reality administered by feeding tube - after the patient refused treatment?
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by count.d
Looks like we're all going to join the ward of the greedy and there's no sugar!
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by Bruce Woodhouse
...and a lot of people are ging to lose their jobs.
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Bruce,
What you say is true, but the whole situation had spiralled out of reality and kilter. The housing bubble has done untold [as yet] damage to the priorities in the economy, which distortions will undoubtedly be rectified, and in the process many will face greater hardship.
But don't forget in an economy where the better off continue to get better off by the year those on minimal wages have been getting not just relatively worse of as the gap in wealth grew, but in real terms as the unavoidable costs of housing, fuel, Council Tax, and Water Rates has soared both relative to the governement backed and published annual inflation figure but also against their own wages.
That this relative fall in standards of living will affect more than just the worst off in our soiciety seems only fair to me, who is in this low paid group who has no representation in Parliament from a group Blair inspired Champaigne Socialists, and yet would I not think of joining any socialist revoltion or creating. Just get on with making do, and not complaining. It will be interesting to see this degree of Plegm from those better off as they catch an economic cold in the fall out from the house price and idiotic mortuage lending that has led to the credit crunch once the reality of the situation has dawned.
They do say what goes round comes round, and in my experience this is more often true than might be accounted for as random.
ATB from George
What you say is true, but the whole situation had spiralled out of reality and kilter. The housing bubble has done untold [as yet] damage to the priorities in the economy, which distortions will undoubtedly be rectified, and in the process many will face greater hardship.
But don't forget in an economy where the better off continue to get better off by the year those on minimal wages have been getting not just relatively worse of as the gap in wealth grew, but in real terms as the unavoidable costs of housing, fuel, Council Tax, and Water Rates has soared both relative to the governement backed and published annual inflation figure but also against their own wages.
That this relative fall in standards of living will affect more than just the worst off in our soiciety seems only fair to me, who is in this low paid group who has no representation in Parliament from a group Blair inspired Champaigne Socialists, and yet would I not think of joining any socialist revoltion or creating. Just get on with making do, and not complaining. It will be interesting to see this degree of Plegm from those better off as they catch an economic cold in the fall out from the house price and idiotic mortuage lending that has led to the credit crunch once the reality of the situation has dawned.
They do say what goes round comes round, and in my experience this is more often true than might be accounted for as random.
ATB from George
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by Polarbear
quote:Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
People economising on fuel, driving less and buying fewer cars. The cost of transporting distantly produced food and goods is increasing with potential benefits to local suppliers.
Consumption is more considered, house prices are coming down and banks are moderating (unwillingly) their loans and many are being slightly nationalised.
A dose of reality administered by feeding tube - after the patient refused treatment?
and thats the good news? So whats the bad news? are you cushioning us for a Naim price increase?
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by hungryhalibut
quote:and thats the good news?
A 35% drop in house prices has got to be good news. Interest rates should fall on Thursday, which should be good news too. And isn't it fun to see bankers sacked, and buy-to-letters get a stuffing!!
Nigel
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by Bob McC
quote:buy-to-letters get a stuffing
How?
Rents up 9.5% in the last year.
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by fred simon
I heard someone smart on National Public Radio today posit that just as Roosevelt's New Deal had about a thirty or so year lifespan, we are now witnessing the end of the Reagan-Thatcher free market bacchanal.
Hey ... an open, unregulated free market is a fine theoretical idea, and I think it will work out great just as soon as greed is eliminated from human nature. Until that time, though ...
All best,
Fred
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by Lapdog
quote:Originally posted by hungryhalibut:
Interest rates should fall on Thursday, which should be good news too.
Nigel
Interest rates may fall, but the banks might not pass it on.
Brian
Posted on: 06 October 2008 by Bruce Woodhouse
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Bruce,
What you say is true, but the whole situation had spiralled out of reality and kilter. The housing bubble has done untold [as yet] damage to the priorities in the economy, which distortions will undoubtedly be rectified, and in the process many will face greater hardship.
But don't forget in an economy where the better off continue to get better off by the year those on minimal wages have been getting not just relatively worse of as the gap in wealth grew, but in real terms as the unavoidable costs of housing, fuel, Council Tax, and Water Rates has soared both relative to the governement backed and published annual inflation figure but also against their own wages.
That this relative fall in standards of living will affect more than just the worst off in our soiciety seems only fair to me, who is in this low paid group who has no representation in Parliament from a group Blair inspired Champaigne Socialists, and yet would I not think of joining any socialist revoltion or creating. Just get on with making do, and not complaining. It will be interesting to see this degree of Plegm from those better off as they catch an economic cold in the fall out from the house price and idiotic mortuage lending that has led to the credit crunch once the reality of the situation has dawned.
They do say what goes round comes round, and in my experience this is more often true than might be accounted for as random.
ATB from George
I agree with the majority of this and the principles therein but I do not think the coming 'economic winter' is going to cause any reduction in the wealth gap. Usually the poorer you are the worse you get hit by economic hard times. Those on low incomes are most vulnerable to changes in prices, have less access to advice, generally have poorer financial planning and less access to (sensible) borrowing. They often have disproportionately high fuel and food costs. Their jobs tend to be most vulnerable, and they have less choices when seeking re-employment. I'm told that our economy has been running 'lean' for some time, costs (especially labour costs) have been squeezed hard for years before this year's events. We are generally far more efficient than say when Thatcher arrived and slashed the wasteful capitalised industries. This means that jobs will be lost fast and early in the current crisis.
The middle class and middle income individuals will squeal loudly in the current situation but the poor are going to suffer most. We have forgotten the dreadful scourge of significant unemployment-it is what I fear most from the current situation. It destroys people and communities.
Bruce
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
Can someone explain where the billions come from that governments are going to use to sort this out - and what are they?
The old gold reserve really only had any value when you could pass it on to someone else (value) for something useful - i.e. not your own currency.
If this problem was localised to the USA then that government could borrow from someone and feed this money (credit) into the trust-less banking system - with luck to a degree that would deflect the questioning of assets.
When the world is involved - who do you borrow from and what is the worth of this loan? The whole system seems based on accepted worth - once this evaporates "worth" comes up for revaluation.
I've previous tried to kick of relatively specific and ultimately trivial threads on value (HiLine, 555PS) but these just reflected a deeper and wider query as to where worth resides.
The old gold reserve really only had any value when you could pass it on to someone else (value) for something useful - i.e. not your own currency.
If this problem was localised to the USA then that government could borrow from someone and feed this money (credit) into the trust-less banking system - with luck to a degree that would deflect the questioning of assets.
When the world is involved - who do you borrow from and what is the worth of this loan? The whole system seems based on accepted worth - once this evaporates "worth" comes up for revaluation.
I've previous tried to kick of relatively specific and ultimately trivial threads on value (HiLine, 555PS) but these just reflected a deeper and wider query as to where worth resides.
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Bruce Woodhouse
My wife suggested we just print more money. Daft idea I said......and then realised that I was not really sure why!
Bruce
Bruce
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by count.d
quote:Can someone explain where the billions come from that governments are going to use to sort this out - and what are they?
Like you are going to trust any answer you get here?
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Lapdog
quote:Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
Can someone explain where the billions come from that governments are going to use to sort this out
I imagine that they’ll either print more money or borrow it (backed by the American people).
Brian
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by Lapdog:
(backed by the American people)
... as a meat resource?
When things get mediaeval on your ass - values become a little more "real".
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Big Al
What has really surprised me is that, given that a barrel of Brent Crude has fallen to less than $90.00/barrel, that we have not seen savings at the pumps passed on with the alacrity with which prices are increased when the (speculative, it would appear)price of crude increases, and that the gas companies have not announced that prices will drop substantially in the medium term; gas prices being linked, we are told to the price of oil.
I would have thought that McBottle, being the people's champion would be pressing for such reductions.
Actually, it does not surprise me at all, because we are taken to the cleaners every which way. Certainly, it is not in McBottle's interest, or that of his glove-puppet Darling for energy prices to drop...
I would have thought that McBottle, being the people's champion would be pressing for such reductions.
Actually, it does not surprise me at all, because we are taken to the cleaners every which way. Certainly, it is not in McBottle's interest, or that of his glove-puppet Darling for energy prices to drop...
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Howlinhounddog
Adam,
I think Maslow's pyramid may be turning on it's head although I fear that the greed of a few may be the cause.
I think this may be the case Fred.
Although I have never found anything bad that I have not been able to attribute to Thatcher.
Oh and just to sulley the water a little more. WE HAVE NO GOLD RESERVES! again WE HAVE NO GOLD RESERVES. Gordon Brown sold them the other year at a knock down price!
Come the revolution...
I think Maslow's pyramid may be turning on it's head although I fear that the greed of a few may be the cause.
quote:I heard someone smart on National Public Radio today posit that just as Roosevelt's New Deal had about a thirty or so year lifespan, we are now witnessing the end of the Reagan-Thatcher free market bacchanal.
I think this may be the case Fred.
Although I have never found anything bad that I have not been able to attribute to Thatcher.
Oh and just to sulley the water a little more. WE HAVE NO GOLD RESERVES! again WE HAVE NO GOLD RESERVES. Gordon Brown sold them the other year at a knock down price!
Come the revolution...
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
Who would buy the gold and what, apart from quite sensible industrial (forget jewellery), value does it have - ultimately?
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
Adam, you living in France totally complicates the issue of "worth"
Over here in England, we plough the fields etc and grow FOOD, which has some real WORTH.
Gordon and Darling demand 50% of this food from me at source (they call this "income-tax" or something)
Gordon and Darling then demand another 17.5% of what I have left, every time I swap some of MY food (lets assume its wheat) for some of Fred's (George's) food (lets assume his is spotted gloucester pork) or some of your food (lets call it Red Burgundy-Nuit St George or something).
But now its complicated because, if we buy from YOU, we also have to hand over to Gordon and Co another 10% (or so) because your wine has to be IMPORTED
So, basically, when Gordon and Darling promise to bale us all out, they really intend to increase the amount of "tax" we pay, and this in turn, ie what they REALLY mean is, we (You, me and George) all have to either grow more food, or eat less.
Complicated (and grotesquely over-simplified) and no doubt wrong.
Cheers
Don
PS you will note that "food" in on your pyramid's "bottom line" (nice turn of phrase that!)- second only to "breathing"
Over here in England, we plough the fields etc and grow FOOD, which has some real WORTH.
Gordon and Darling demand 50% of this food from me at source (they call this "income-tax" or something)
Gordon and Darling then demand another 17.5% of what I have left, every time I swap some of MY food (lets assume its wheat) for some of Fred's (George's) food (lets assume his is spotted gloucester pork) or some of your food (lets call it Red Burgundy-Nuit St George or something).
But now its complicated because, if we buy from YOU, we also have to hand over to Gordon and Co another 10% (or so) because your wine has to be IMPORTED
So, basically, when Gordon and Darling promise to bale us all out, they really intend to increase the amount of "tax" we pay, and this in turn, ie what they REALLY mean is, we (You, me and George) all have to either grow more food, or eat less.
Complicated (and grotesquely over-simplified) and no doubt wrong.
Cheers
Don
PS you will note that "food" in on your pyramid's "bottom line" (nice turn of phrase that!)- second only to "breathing"
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by u5227470736789439
I really suspect that the very basicis of capitalism will be questioned before this current crisis is resolved.
I have long since argued that the economy should serve me, as all others too of course, and not I serve the economy, which is not to say that don't think my work efforts should be worth several times what I am paid for those efforts. Of course it is essential that any work any of us do for wages is worth far more than we might be paid, but what something is worth is indeed going to be very seriously examined now. I suspect that trust will again be seen as crucial, and yet it has been ever more devalued over time.
I see this devaluation, and the behavoir that leads to this devaluation as ultimately being the cause of this crisis, and yet this absense of trust, bred from a lack of intrgrity in those who have significant and powerful jobs, has come back to bite us all, who must now, inetivitably, pay more tax to bail out a failed economiic system.
I put it as seriously as that. The capitalist system has failed due to lack of trust and integrity.
Strange that Communism should fail for exactly the same reason. All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
ATB from George
I have long since argued that the economy should serve me, as all others too of course, and not I serve the economy, which is not to say that don't think my work efforts should be worth several times what I am paid for those efforts. Of course it is essential that any work any of us do for wages is worth far more than we might be paid, but what something is worth is indeed going to be very seriously examined now. I suspect that trust will again be seen as crucial, and yet it has been ever more devalued over time.
I see this devaluation, and the behavoir that leads to this devaluation as ultimately being the cause of this crisis, and yet this absense of trust, bred from a lack of intrgrity in those who have significant and powerful jobs, has come back to bite us all, who must now, inetivitably, pay more tax to bail out a failed economiic system.
I put it as seriously as that. The capitalist system has failed due to lack of trust and integrity.
Strange that Communism should fail for exactly the same reason. All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
ATB from George
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by JamieWednesday
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear James,
I could not agree more.
ATB
I could not agree more.
ATB
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Adam, you living in France totally complicates the issue of "worth"
Over here in England, we plough the fields etc and grow FOOD, which has some real WORTH.
Presumably - in contrast with France.
If so - this is one of the dumbest comments I've seen in a long time. The area around me is a constant scene of productive activity. Local food is seasonally available in many local markets and even the local supermarket stocks locally produced fruit, vegetables and wine.
I'll accept that this use of the countryside is undertaken in a very large number of small(ish) farms and they do not enjoy the benefits of having been conglomerated and this, unfortunately, means they still require a surprisingly large number of people who live outside the cites to work on them.
And don't get started on energy independence - the smart money was on buying it from where it was available cheaply. The French are, again, old fashioned enough to have retained production (nuclear) largely within the country.
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
PS you will note that "food" in on your pyramid's "bottom line" (nice turn of phrase that!)- second only to "breathing"
I didn't put it there because I didn't understand it.
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
quote:this is one of the dumbest comments I've seen in a long time.
Relax. Try some more of that wine.
I'm trying to help you, not knocking France. You are sitting in the middle of things of real worth and asking what has value and worth!!!
At least now you are begining to understand what has real worth. Its growing all around you, or fusing to keep you warm in winter. There are lots of other examples and these are the things that underpin any economy, and a good slice of this is taken by government to provide communal benefits (school, health-care, defence etc)and to manipulate (bale-out)other activities such as unstable financial markets - "I promise to pay the bearer..."
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by u5227470736789439
It does appear possible that we have some of the first British persanal savings lost at least in part in the Icelandic Bank taken into Icelandic State ownership.
The first of many off-shore investments that will go wrong from now on I am sure.
Things are going to get much worse yet. Is any savings account completely safe now? An expert view on this would be interesting I think.
Trust in the system has gone and with good cause it seems.
George
The first of many off-shore investments that will go wrong from now on I am sure.
Things are going to get much worse yet. Is any savings account completely safe now? An expert view on this would be interesting I think.
Trust in the system has gone and with good cause it seems.
George
Posted on: 07 October 2008 by Wolf2
yeah, I hated what was happening 8 years ago and now it's a nightmare. I've heard that comment about Reagan deregulation and believe it true. It was the finance industry that started trading paper, %s, no collateral and "Hey, lets print more money" and they made a LOT of money. Industry and agriculture didn't do it. Who has? tech drop of 2000, businesses built on nothing tangible? Finance, trading paper on "trust"?
Major manipulation by game players.
This problem does go back to the printing paper money with no precious metal backing it. Remember all those caper films to steal gold?
It'll be hard currency in the future.
Major manipulation by game players.
This problem does go back to the printing paper money with no precious metal backing it. Remember all those caper films to steal gold?
It'll be hard currency in the future.