The Good News?

Without the City bonuses, who's going to buy the Naim 500 series which pays AM's salary?

Actually, if I hear one more smug financier/accountant/FSA Chairman say 'now is not the time for recrimination', I shall personally go round and shove a large spiked object in several places.

Now is PRECISELY the time to haul the greedy b*ds over the coals, until, as Denis Healey so memorably put it, the pips squeak.

And an unreserved apology from me for the above mixed metaphors.

Saving outside British regulatory control and the EU is utter folly now. Beware all you Channel Island account holders you aint protected by any guarantees!

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Saving outside British regulatory control and the EU is utter folly now

'twas ever thus

Amongst all the talk of corporate 'fat cat' greed. How about those that take higher risks to gain higher earnings by internet shopping into overseas bank accounts and then bleat about how it's not worked out and someone else should bail them out of trouble!!!

There was a reason why last year you could get 7% at Northern Rock and 5.6% only at National Savings. There was a reason for higher fixed rates at B&B. There was a reason why Landsbanki offered 8%...You can get near 12% from one of the biggest banks in South Africa right now. Fancy it?

As ever people always want to have their cake still and eat it. Something for nothing just doesn't work yet so many people will still follow those pound signs in trying to beat the system (any episode of Watchdog proves that). Every exchange or contract of any type carries some element of risk to both parties. There is less risk with HSBC so you get lower retruns. There's more risk in putting money into something offering better results. Nothing has changed.

I can't agree Jamie. People saved with Icesave (et al) because the CEO of the bank & the Icelandic govenment said 'your money is safe." They both repeated this the day before they took the banks over & told UK/Dutch savers they weren't keeping their word. In this situation savers should not lose out as they are the sensible ones. The Management & shareholders should pay the bill IMO.

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the poor are going to suffer most.

Absolutley; most noticable to me is as the 'rich' nations panic, talk of ending poverty goes silent!

My understanding is any govenment bail-out will ultimatley be paid for from taxes.

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Fkit. I'm off.

I am currently close to this island & can confirm the truth of this article.

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Now is PRECISELY the time to haul the greedy b*ds over the coals, until, as Denis Healey so memorably put it, the pips squeak.

Let's remember the root of this crisis is stupid greedy bankers,
& stupid greedy investors/borrowers.

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The Management & shareholders should pay the bill IMO.

With what? They don't have anything, perhaps a few barasti huts in a desert somewhere.

And I don't think the British government should have baled them out. Put pressure on the Icelandic Government to honour any pledges etc etc, but I don't want MY hard-earned tax deductions funding investers in foreign climes. And I wouldn't expect Gordnon to bale me out when my foreign interests take a down-turn.

Cheers

Don

Adam asked what has real worth or value.

IMHO it is ANYTHING that you (or others) either need or want. In hard times this might only include water, food and shelter. In more prosperous times it might extend to Naim hifi, Bentleys or luxury cruises. You get the picture - things you need when times are hard, things you want when times are prosperous. Adam's pyramid captures the concept.

Having to trade purely in comodities, is very limiting. I guess that about 5,000 to 10,000 years ago, somebody introduced the idea of IOUs, call it money if you like. Gold and silver seemed to work ok, but isn't foolproof. To a large extent, and based on "trust", a bit of paper with "IOU" or "I promise to pay" is as good as gold, maybe even better. Bloody sight more convenient than pure trading

This "money" needs to be managed so comes at a price, usually in the form of administraters (lets call them bankers) who take a slice of the action in exchange for their expertise. Does this expertise have any worth or any value? Opinion varies I guess, some might think the term "wanker" more appropriate.

Ok, these are 2-minute disjointed ramblings. This is a hifi forum, not a platform for a PhD thesis in global economics.

Cheers

Don

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And I don't think the British government should have baled them out. Put pressure on the Icelandic Government to honour any pledges etc etc, but I don't want MY hard-earned tax deductions funding investers in foreign climes. And I wouldn't expect Gordnon to bale me out when my foreign interests take a down-turn.

Since writing the above, I have been advised that Icesave had arrangements with the FSCS (Financial Services Compensation Scheme) in the UK. It would seem that the FSCS should provide appropriate compensation. If this is underwritten by the UK Gov, then fair do's, investers should get their money back from Gordon/Darling/You/me.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
This is a hifi forum, not a platform for a PhD thesis in global economics.

And that's the 2nd most inaccurate ....

Alternatively - PLEASE continue as the Padded Cell was once intended to be a place for (otherly) interesting discussions.

My main interest in Maslow some minor observations he made when spending time with native Americans and the connection with Harry Harlow - whom I had read about in my youth.

To "explain" the shorthand diagram I have stolen:

"Physiological Needs
These are biological needs. They consist of needs for oxygen, food, water, and a relatively constant body temperature. They are the strongest needs because if a person were deprived of all needs, the physiological ones would come first in the person's search for satisfaction.

Safety Needs
When all physiological needs are satisfied and are no longer controlling thoughts and behaviors, the needs for security can become active. Adults have little awareness of their security needs except in times of emergency or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting). Children often display the signs of insecurity and the need to be safe.

Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness
When the needs for safety and for physiological well-being are satisfied, the next class of needs for love, affection and belongingness can emerge. Maslow states that people seek to overcome feelings of loneliness and alienation. This involves both giving and receiving love, affection and the sense of belonging.

Needs for Esteem
When the first three classes of needs are satisfied, the needs for esteem can become dominant. These involve needs for both self-esteem and for the esteem a person gets from others. Humans have a need for a stable, firmly based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others. When these needs are satisfied, the person feels self-confident and valuable as a person in the world. When these needs are frustrated, the person feels inferior, weak, helpless and worthless.

Needs for Self-Actualization
When all of the foregoing needs are satisfied, then and only then are the needs for self-actualization activated. Maslow describes self-actualization as a person's need to be and do that which the person was "born to do." "A musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write." These needs make themselves felt in signs of restlessness. The person feels on edge, tense, lacking something, in short, restless. If a person is hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem, it is very easy to know what the person is restless about. It is not always clear what a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.

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Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
This is a hifi forum, not a platform for a PhD thesis in global economics.

And that's ....

Interesting, Adam. I wonder where you came across the writing of Maslow in your youth?

His work is central in counselling and psychotherapy training in this country -takes me back a few years and never thought I would see it quoted on the Naim forum. Always thought his hierarchy of human needs were so potent -
a lot of people could do a lot worse than to read Abraham Maslow.

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....I had read about in my youth.....

you and me both, and probably half the forum as well. Still doesn't qualify for PhD status - introduction to GCSE Sociology perhaps? and very helpful to keep things in perspective and in order of priority. IMHO of course.

So, where does banking slot into Maslow's little pyramid? and what's banking worth to you (ie anybody who actually reads this)or society in general? How do YOU attach a value to banking, or anything for that matter? Is that value to you constant, or changing. Why are your values different to the values of others.

Old-fashioned provincial building societies seemed to operate on a very simple model and their operations seemed to be transparent. The top people running them didn't attract the adverse publicity that bankers do today. Same was true of the smaller banks eg Martins (anybody else remember them?)Were these establishments better value (or more worthwhile) than today's banks? Should we revert? could we revert?

I first bumped into the HSBC in the form of the BBME (British Bank of the Middle East) in the Trucial States (=UAE now)back in '68. I was naively shocked to learn that it wasn't some kind of British Goverment run organisation (or at least government backed), but belonged to a bunch of shareholders whose origins and ethics were largely unknown. Made me realise this was the case with most companies and most of us were relying on the regulatory controls of the country in which each company was registered - a bit like the flag-of-convenience used in shipping. So, where do all the "Abby National" savers stand when things get tough?

Cheers

Don

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I heard someone smart on National Public Radio today posit that just as Roosevelt's New Deal had about a thirty or so year lifespan, we are now witnessing the end of the Reagan-Thatcher free market bacchanal.

The idea of 30 year long cycles in the economy isn't that uncommon. People who trade in gold are quite in to it, if I have understood it correctly. The thought that the neo liberalism era is coming to an end has struck me, particulary since the followers seem to have retreated to the trenches, just sitting there and repeating their slogans.


Warren Buffet, one of the worlds richest persons has said something like:

"I buy when everybody eles is scared, I'm scared when everybody else is buying."

Time to buy and become the super rich person of the next boom period!

JohanR

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Originally posted by Sister E.:
His work is central in counselling and psychotherapy training in this country ...

I came to him relatively late in my youth - or early in my maturity.
There's a lot of reading out there that can leave you with a chill view of humanity. I found him attractive and interesting because he seemed to have a theory of the individual that sought integration with humanity. Nietzsche, Sartre, Freud, Ayn Rand (!) and others seemed to divide individual from herd - something which instinctively seemed wrong to me.

For Maslow the self-actualized individual is likely to be somewhat inconsonant with wider society but does not seek to be apart. For many others I felt I detected a self-doubt which, psychologically rather than philosophically, lead them to polarise the world into the contemptible and the worshipped, ape and angel, body and mind, .....

Maslow seemed able to say "I'd like to be like that" - i.e. I fail to be that, seek to approach my ideal as far as I am capable. Other theories seemed to have a central void. The absent self - flickering between the poles of the good/bad dichotomy.

That said - it was later made clear to me that Maslow is now read less by psychologists than by marketeers. Basic selling - once you know a person's needs you, if you were so minded, know his vulnerabilities. You want to buy a hug?

Well Maslow seems to be filed under the person-centred wing of counselling nowadays, hence the more touch-feely and more optimistic view of humanity than some of the others you have quoted. Carl Rogers is, of course the grandaddy of the person-centred counselling and is essential reading for those who are attracted to this approach...

No - it was person-centred philosophy and holistic psychology (as opposed to the Freudian focus) I was interested in. I have only a limited interest in therapy.

Philosophies aren't discovered in the world they are projected upon it. I'd rather share a pint with Maslow than Skinner and I'd rather live in a world where Maslow was right - rather than one of Skinner's frigid utopias.

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Originally posted by JohanR:

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I heard someone smart on National Public Radio today posit that just as Roosevelt's New Deal had about a thirty or so year lifespan, we are now witnessing the end of the Reagan-Thatcher free market bacchanal.

The thought that the neo liberalism era is coming to an end has struck me

Reagan-Thatcher neo-liberals?! I don't think so. Don't you mean neo-conservatives?

Best,
Fred

I don't know how they could ever be thought of as neo anything. and most definitely conservative.

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I don't know how they could ever be thought of as neo anything

How about neo nazi?

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And I don't think the British government should have baled them out. Put pressure on the Icelandic Government to honour any pledges etc etc, but I don't want MY hard-earned tax deductions funding investers in foreign climes. And I wouldn't expect Gordnon to bale me out when my foreign interests take a down-turn.

Cheers

Don

I suspect you don't understand the structure of Icesave & the other subsidiaries of Landbankski Don. They are UK based & regulated by the FSA. Those saving (not investing, that's completely different) with these banks are UK residents paying taxes in the UK.

No need to get yourself all bent out of shape as a tax payer. In a rare show of shrewdness the UK government froze all the UK assets of the affected banks (in other words the UK savers cash) last Sunday when they got wind of what was happening. These assets will be used to refund the savers, so little or no cost to the exchequer.

We all have an interest in ordinary people not losing savings in banks.
If it happens there will be a loss of confidence domino effect,
& this could well cause the collapse of the whole banking system.
If that happens the 'problems' of today will look like a tea party in comparison.

but ultimately Maslow research just leads us to, "profound cosmic sadness" so what good is that? Hence we take refuge in the purchase of more and more expensive hifi and its seemingly endless attached discussions.

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Originally posted by csl:
but ultimately Maslow research just leads us to, "profound cosmic sadness" so what good is that? Hence we take refuge in the purchase of more and more expensive hifi and its seemingly endless attached discussions.

It doesn't need to be that way, but it's always easier to follow the pack

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I suspect you don't understand the structure of Icesave & the other subsidiaries of Landbankski Don.

555, you are right. Perhaps you overlooked the two posts I made imediately after the above quote.

cheers

Don

I didn't overlook your two retro' posts Don.
In light of all your posts it seemed appropriate to clarify the situation re: Icelandic bank subsidiaries operating in the UK.

Cheers - John

It's staggering that UK local councils didn't sniff that there was something very dodgy about the whole Icelandic thing. The fund manager for some major charities (e.g. Oxfam, NSPCC) has said that he realised this wasn't a safe place to put large amounts of money, as the country is simply too small, in terms of its taxpayer base, to support such a venture. Result is that the bigger charities are OK, but the smaller ones who didn't employ these people lost out. Obviously our local councils weren't that bright - nor were the newspapers who month after month have promoted them on their 'Best Savings Accounts' pages, without any thought for the risk.

Can we hope for a properly managed banking industry now?

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Can we hope for a properly managed banking industry now?

Not if Hazel Blears is on the board of every bank that takes Government funding. God help us

Cheers

Don

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Originally posted by fred simon:
Reagan-Thatcher neo-liberals?! I don't think so. Don't you mean neo-conservatives?

Best,
Fred

Neo-liberal is a term usually applied to those who support the current style of pro-corporatist globalism as opposed to "conservative", more centrally-planned economies. And example might be India, which has gone from a fairly regulated, imports-restricted regime to the current, more open situation.

This explanation is approximate, I'm not a regular reader of The Economist.