LP12 alternatives

Posted by: Christopher on 12 November 2003

Hello everyone

Just thought I'd share my pain with you... picked a record up off my LP12 the other day (Led Zep 3 re-issue, very nice btw), the mat came away with it, then fell away from the record, dropped onto the Aro, which lifted and swung across to land on the platter, completely wrecking the XX-1. What a nasty noise.

Anyway, this aside, I've decided to move on from the LP12, so I'm going to pack it up at Christmas and bring it back to the UK, Armageddon and all, with a view to a part-ex for something else. The question is what to consider... I hope somebody can offer advice.

I'm after a TT with a bit more punch than the LP12, more CD like I guess (I find it really tough to listen to LP and CD, they are so different that my ear gets attuned to one and ends up loathing the other)... the LP12 is great, but the bass, although assured, isn't textured enough... I'd like something tighter and punchier. Similarly, I'd like a more open sound, with bit more top-end sparkle... but don't want to lose that sublime mid (I've never heard voices sound so convincing as through the LP12). I have listened to the P9 (with DV 17? gold-coloured thing) and, although initially inmpressive, found it to be too "fizzy", bordering on harsh. Anybody heard the SME20? What about der Plattenspiele? Any other alternatives? I don't want to spend the earth, I would say an absolute max of £5k.

Any help appreciated!
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Spike
Hi Christopher

you are nearly there!!! I would keep the LP12 but change the Aro to a new Linn Ekos with Silver lead and add the new Linn Akiva. I have just done this and I am absolutely knocked out by the results. The frquency extremes are now outstanding with tight fast and punchy bass. The top end is also as good as I have ever heard. I was worried that I would miss the Aro's sublime mid I feel it is equal to if not better. All in all the best upgrade that I have done for many years.

Cheers

Spike
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Chris Metcalfe
Spike,
You don't work for Linn do you?
Seriously, which power supply are you using? Which cartridge did you have before?
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by prowla
First person I've heard of who wanted their Linn to sound more like CD!

Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Spike
Hi Chris

I most certainly do not work for Linn. I am reporting what I found and why I changed my arm/cartridge combination. I have previously used a Karma, Troika and Arkive in my Aro with a Linn Lingo. I had listened to an Akiva in an Aro and thought that it was better than the Arkiv. However, in the Ekos with the new Siver cable it was a revelation. I originally purchased the Aro over the original Ekos as I preferred the Aro but the current Ekos I feel is better. The frequency extremes with this combination is awesome. I have no regrets in changing and believe my I am a big fan of the Aro.

Cheers

Spike
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Jean-Marc
Hi Chris,
why not give a spin at some of those German TTs from Clearaudio, Clearlight, Amazon, etc?

Jean-Marc
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Tim Jones
Christopher -

There is nothing 'fizzy' or harsh about a properly set-up P9/DV17. It's an excellent alternative to an LP12 which is why at least two of us on this forum have swapped our LP12s for P9s.

Tim
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Christopher
Tim

I wish I agreed as I think it's a superbly engineered deck, and so easy to use, but in a head to head demo against the LP12 (infidelity, Kingston - I believe this is where you bought yours?) I found it to be a bit tiring after a while. Fantastic detail though, and great bottom end, the LP12 sounded a bit dull in comparison. So not to say I didn't like it at all, but not what I am hankering for.
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Alex S.
Christopher, I changed from an LP12/AW Lingo/Linto/Aro/XX2 to a Well Tempered Record Player (the cheapest), DV P100 pnono, keeping the XX2.

It took me all of 10 seconds to decide the WT was better in every way and 8 months down the line I'm just as pleased I made the change - much greater dynamic range, quieter, much more bass definition and complete pitch stability which helps in a lot of ways relative to an LP12. I thought I might miss the groove and flow of an Aro'd LP12 but I don't at all. Also, the WT doesn't go off every few months.

All this is with Dynavector amps which go very well with WT decks - what amps are you using?

Alex

BTW The P9 is too CD-like for my tastes but the little I've heard of the Notts Analogues have impressed. Same goes for VPIs.
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Christopher

Two suggstions to cure the decks' olls:

1. Double sided tape the mat to the platter
2. Cirkus the LP12.

£4500 within budget. Also, the Akiva and Lingo 2 are fantastic upgrades; not sure what you have, your profile is out of date.

BTW, I dont work for Linn, they work for me....

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Christopher
Mike

The deck is quite recent, only a few years old, so it has the cirkus. Also Armageddon'd. With you on the sticky tape though... wished I'd known that earlier! Red Face(
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Christopher,

I'd like to suggest that what you're hearing is not just a difference between a deck and a CD player, rather the formats themselves have differing advantages/disadvantages.
Frankly I've yet to hear a CD player that sounds comparable to a really good record deck. As you say, LP12 have awesome mid range, although their frequency extremes are a little rolled off, whereas CD has better low end control and extension.
The only record deck I've heard that got close to your requirements was a VPI setup which was at Bristol this year. Awesome stuff, but also over 10k in cost. Bear in mind however that the LP12 does certain things amazingly well, probably more so that just about anything else ever made.
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by Christopher
Mr Sukebe

I think that you are right! What I need is something that allows me to move from one to the other without having to re-tune into the presentation every time. I guess the CDX is fairly analogue in presentation (at least this is what I heard, and why I bought it)... what I need is a TT that takes this a step further, but maybe something a bit more "modern" sounding than the LP12 (no hate mail please!) that also has some of the traits of CD (tight bottom end, good extension at the extremes But with the involvement!) Tall order!
Posted on: 12 November 2003 by David Ng
I noticed no comments on Chris orignal question, what about the SME 20? Would like to hear some owner's views.

david
Posted on: 13 November 2003 by JeremyB
SME20 didn't do it for me, fabulous detail but the music doesn't hold your attention like it should, especially the "R" in PRT.

SME10 was way better in the "R" dept (and that comparison was done with the usual classical demo records like Scheherazade).

Long term listening Prefix2 and a better pre-power reveal the clear superiority of the Naim LP12 to the SME (and probably any other turntable). No vested interest here as I may need to sell the SME and running an LP12 is certainly a pain compared to an SME.

My guess is that with inferior electronics, other turntables can have more punch and with better electronics this difference disappears.
Posted on: 17 November 2003 by Alex S.
Jeffrey, I agree with you really. I left my LP12 spinning for years on end without getting wound up about it. Nonetheless, every time I had it re-set it picked up considerably - I guess it tails off imperceptibly and you only notice when you get round to re-setting it.
Posted on: 18 November 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by JeremyB:
SME20 didn't do it for me, fabulous detail but the music doesn't hold your attention like it should, especially the "R" in PRT.

SME10 was way better in the "R" dept (and that comparison was done with the usual classical demo records like Scheherazade).

Long term listening Prefix2 and a better pre-power reveal the clear superiority of the Naim LP12 to the SME (and probably any other turntable). No vested interest here as I may need to sell the SME and running an LP12 is certainly a pain compared to an SME.

My guess is that with inferior electronics, other turntables can have more punch and with better electronics this difference disappears.


Jeremy's experience is the same as mine altho I don't have his mega amps, I went from LP12/aro/etc to Phonospohie to Well Tempered back to LP12, all were different alernatives but the Naimed LP12 matched the best musically in my system. Now with Fraim under everything it is more revealing and musical still.
Posted on: 18 November 2003 by David Young
Could you tell us your experiences of Phonosophie(Is it Phonosophie 3) compare to LP12?
Posted on: 18 November 2003 by Dev B
quote:
Originally posted by David Young:
Could you tell us your experiences of Phonosophie(Is it Phonosophie 3) compare to LP12?


It is leaner, faster, more exciting, but doesn't have body or tone or weight. It's a bit like a Roksan if you get my drift. A personal taste thing but I would probably keep the LP12 and get a cartridge to suit you tastes (eg a LP12 with a 17D2 is very similar)
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by Adrian Mehlig
Well, I've been using an SME Model 20 for the past 9 years and have been very happy with it indeed - even more so since I recently fitted a Koetsu Rosewood Signature.

This combination works very well together; the SME is an extremely neutral deck (unlike the LP12) and digs more information from the groove than you ever knew existed, while the Koetsu completes the picture by adding colour, texture & body to the SME's white canvas.

Dev, I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised by the presentation of the SME/Koetsu when you come over for a listen...
Posted on: 23 November 2003 by JeremyB
Adrian,

What arm do you use on the 20?

Jeremy
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by Frank Abela
Christopher,

You're going to hate this response. The reason you have no punch is the CM4 speakers. This isn't helped by the fact you're probably using a standard set of Naim boards. Now I'm not a lover of the LP12 but I can guarantee that this is not where your problem lies. If you really want snap and punch you could do a lot worse than spend the money on an ortofon Kontrpunkt 'B' and Tom Evans Groove combination with a Chord Anthem to go between the phono stage and preamp. The Ortofon sounds harsh and nasty into the standard boards but cleans up considerably into a top end phono stage. Alternatively consider the XX-2 into the same phono stage. The vinyl combination will sound a lot better than the CDX/XPS in every respect.

Of course, the rest should be spent on a pair of speakers that can really do punch rather than trying to sound like treacle sponges. The new B&W 705s are a real hit and would keep you under your £5k limit after the source changes. Also, there are other speakers which will do you justice but the CM4s really hold everything back...sorry...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.