Abu Qatada

It's what separates us from the likes of terrorists Ewan.
If we ignored their human rights we'd be no better then them.
Don't forget we're as bad as any re: exporting problems - e.g. Gary Glitter.

quote:

Originally posted by Ewan Aye:

Why is it always our problem, and why is it that these murderers are always released into our communities?

Who has he murdered?

Rich

As far as I'm aware, apart from being a distasteful character he has't done anything wrong. I don't think he has even been charged with anything.

I agree with 555.

And 22 hours per day in yer house.... no internet or mobile phone. I wouldn't last long.

Tony

It is a pity that the human rights of the general population to be protected from terrorists and troublemakers come lower on the priority scale than the HR of an uninvited visitor.

Not lower Derek, just taken in to account.
AQ isn't an uninvited visitor;
how did U.K. border controls allow him entry?

For once I agree with 555 (it does happen occasionally!), the guy is innocent until proven guilty, if he's done something wrong prove him guilty in a court of law, then you can lock him up. We have a moral obligation (nevermind the treaties/conventions we are signed up to), not to return someone to a country where they might face death or torture. What is the point of fighting terrorism if in so doing we abandon our ideals of justice and fairness, or our conviction that there are things which we should protect people from regardless of how much we might dislike them?

Quite frankly idiots like Qatada should be given a show on the beeb and made to discuss their views with serious moderate Muslim clerics and accademics. If these people were airing their views in an arena where they can be challenged and questioned by people who understand what they are talking about, rather than alone in a room with a bunch of impressionable teenagers they wouldn't recruit a single person to their warped misinterpretation of a peaceful religion. It would also do wonders for the fear of terrorism to show these people as they are to the general public, pathetic.

quote:

For once I agree with 555

I am also in complete agreement with all of Dom's post!

Without wishing to muddy the waters lets not forget that his son has recently been before the courts on theft charges. Qatada sponges off the state and we as tax payers are paying for his five children, people carrier and housing benefits.

The bleeding heart liberal do gooders in this country would rather pay to keep him and his ilk safe and well rather than spend the money on more deserving causes - genuine refugees fleeing from persecution who are grateful for the help and comfort that this country can extend to them.

Why all the fuss about detaining people for 42 days without charge. Abu Qatada has been detained for over three years without charge.

Why isn’t David Davis calling for his immediate release.

I have an awful lot of respect for David Davis, maybe you should write to him and ask about Qatada, I think you might be surprised by his response. Qatada is effectively under house arrest due to exactly the errosion of civil liberties and the rule of law Davis is trying to mount a challenge against. As far as I'm aware Qatada is guilty of nothing more than saying things that people find offensive, and think might be dangerous, and I'm afraid I'm with Voltaire on this one, "though I despise what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Steve,

I am anything but a liberal do gooder, but I recognise that there are certain things that people should be protected from regardless of how dispicable they might be. The whole chav culture disgusts me, but I don't think for a minute that anyone wearing fake Burberry and a gold chain has less right to be protected from police brutality than the elderly lady whose handbag they've just stolen!

quote:

Originally posted by fatcat:
Why all the fuss about detaining people for 42 days without charge. Abu Qatada has been detained for over three years without charge.

Why isn’t David Davis calling for his immediate release.

Conversely, if they haven't gathered enough info to keep him potted after three years trying, 42 days for other suspects is unlikely to help. Makes a mockery of Brown's claims ...

He is protected by the same laws that protect me and if needed I hope that the state would support me just as it supports him. I am in favour of the Law Lords deciding upon the scope of the law rather than the press, tv and a collection of voluble "rent a quote" merchant be they sitting on green or red benches.

quote:

The bleeding heart liberal do gooders in this country would rather pay to keep him and his ilk safe and well rather than spend the money on more deserving causes

When it comes to human rights you can't pick & choose who gets them Steve2.

Deporting Abu Qatada to Jordan would help the terrorists because he would become a martyr for Al Qaeda, & that would result in a new wave of terrorist recruits.

quote:

I have an awful lot of respect for David Davis

For the 1st time there's a conservative politician I'd vote for.

It could be that he has been set up as bait in a trap, just waiting for whatever CIA/Mossad/ Jordan secret whatever to come along and do what they want to do. While he was in prison he was too well protected.

Thatcher would never have stood for that type of crap. Mossad were so worried about how she might respond that they wouldn't touch Mordechai Vanunu whilst he was on British soil. They abducted him within 6 hours of him leaving it though.

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
It's what separates us from the likes of terrorists Ewan.

Oh yeah?

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
Thatcher would never have stood for that type of crap. Mossad were so worried about how she might respond that they wouldn't touch Mordechai Vanunu whilst he was on British soil. They abducted him within 6 hours of him leaving it though.

What do you think she would have done?

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:

Quite frankly idiots like Qatada should be given a show on the beeb and made to discuss their views with serious moderate Muslim clerics and accademics. If these people were airing their views in an arena where they can be challenged and questioned by people who understand what they are talking about, rather than alone in a room with a bunch of impressionable teenagers they wouldn't recruit a single person to their warped misinterpretation of a peaceful religion. It would also do wonders for the fear of terrorism to show these people as they are to the general public, pathetic.

And then make it compulsary viewing in all schools and places of worship, and I do mean ALL churches.

Ridicule by well educated peers is a very powerful weapon of destruction against this kind of twisted individual.

Jono

quote:

What do you think she would have done?

Sold him?

quote:

Oh yeah?

Horrific as that incident was, it's not an example of terrorism.
However I'm painfully aware of uk.gov.con's (+ allies) involvement in torture,
extraordinary rendition, war crimes regarding Iraq, etc.




Although Ama Sumani's visa had expired I would expect a reasonably compassionate government to grant her permission to finish the medical treatment in the UK.

So surprise when she was deported!

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

quote:

What do you think she would have done?

Sold him?

Great idea. A modest investment of only a dozen shares or so would allow the humblest Daily Mail reading former-council-house owner to become a stakeholder in International Terrorism.

But my original question was unclear. I meant..."What would Thatcher have actually done if Mossad had nabbed Vannu on British soil?

quote:

What would Thatcher have actually done if Mossad had nabbed Vannu on British soil?

quote:

Thatcher, then prime minister, closed Mossad's London base in 1987 after it was discovered that Israeli agents had withheld from British intelligence information about a plot to assassinate a Palestinian journalist. Naji Ali, a cartoonist, was shot dead in a South Kensington street.

The fear was that as that mere failure to inform had provoked such a furious response further provocation would result in the expulsion of the diplomatic staff, and/or Thatcher ordering the arrest or even assasination of the unofficial (no diplomatic status) Mossad opperatives still in Britain, who they knew MI5 were already watching.

As a result they were very careful. Ultimately it was Vannu's vanity that sealed his fate. MI5 warned him that his 'girlfriend' was a Mossad agent and not to leave British Soil, but he wouldn't believe that the woman he had fallen in love with was out to get him and went to Rome with her where he was promptly druged and dispatched back Israil.

Djftw! Being a chav and wearing Burberry may offend the senses but welcoming and encouraging, glorifying the deaths of innocent people is in a different league. The argument that we will make a martyr of him also does not wash. Are you suggesting we lower our standards to those of the scum bags who think Abu Qatada is a venerable individual and afford him the same privileges and rights that he is happy to deny others. A homosexual Jewish doctor who saved countless lives and worked tirelessly for the good of his community would have no chance if Abu Qatada had his way.

djftw,

I see. Thanks.

David,

I should probably point out that I got that information from several articles by Yossi Melman, who interviewed the former Mossad agents involved in Vannu's abduction. Personally I doubt Thatcher would have ordered assasinations, but perhaps Mossad viewed it as a valid threat as it might be what they would do in the same circumstances!


Steve,

I for one think that the Chav sub-culture does promote violence. I had my arm broken by one. On another occasion my brother and I went to the aid of a 13 year old 'goth' girl who was being attacked by a group of about eight of them. They had beaten her up quite badly and started tearing off her clothes, I think if they had not been disturbed they would have raped her. One of my brother's friend's face bones are now held together by metal mesh after Chavs repeatedly smashed his face into a letter box. I think these people are every bit as evil as terrorists. I don't doubt that there are Chavs who are not actually violent thugs, but a lot of them mouth off, and laugh about the missery they are causing people. Perhaps not many Chavs go as far as to kill people, but many certainly glorify acts of violence against innocent people. I do not think that there is an important distinction between those people, and people like Qatada. They are both utterly deplorable, pathetic thugs that revel in violence, are predjudiced against, and act in an appalling maner towards people who are not like them. Whether or not they claim some warped religious justification for their actions is utterly irrelevant to me.