World ends today - 6-6-6

Well with any luck it'll keep them off the streets. Now where's my copy of The Wicker Man.... ?

Cheers

Harry

Shit - It's mid-day. Hold onto your seats!!!
The End

I've barely heard mention of the "significance" of the date here, deep in the heart of Red State Territory.
If the world is supposed to end on 06-06-2006, why didn't it end on 6-6-6 2,000 years ago? Oh yeah, we didn't have the Julian calendar then...
Might as well leave our HiFi on and use up those carbon credits, it's all over soon.
Sooner for you folks, we are 6 hours behind. Post back and let me know how it went.
David

So tomorrow the evangelicals can say it was only due to their prayer that the world was saved. You gotta luv em eh? Did you see em last night on channel 4 being hot-housed for the government in a new college in the US? Scary or wot?

Of course if the bible says the world is to end today one wonders why they bothered to set the college up in the first place and why would they pray to make the bible wrong? Well I'm sure they will have an answer that satifies their tiny minds. Me, im off to say goodbye to my favourite waitress and smack her arse for her just in case its the last chance I have.

See y'all in that great naim shop in the sky where they give away 555s with a set of wings with a logo that lights up.

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
Sooner for you folks, we are 6 hours behind. Post back and let me know how it went.

I like your thinking!

The symbolism of the three sixes 'the number of the beast' (anti-Christ) in the concluding Book of the Bible, the Apocalypse (which means 'revelation' and is set against the background of the persecution of the early Christians in the Roman Empire, which is reflected in the writing) is because 6 is one less than the perfect number 7 -- reflected in, say, the 7 days which make a week, in the creation stories (not story, singular) in the first Book of the Bible, Genesis (which means 'origins'); or the 7 (not 2) of each 'clean' animal to be taken into the ark by Noah, again Genesis; or the 7 great churches in Asia Minor, in the book of the Apocalypse again. -- List or notes not exhaustive!.

So the most 'perfect' symbolic number derived from the Bible is the 'Trinitarian' group of three sevens.

Six, just one less than seven, is a symbolic demonstration of what little it takes to spoil perfection.

So mirroring the 'Trinitarian' three sevens, in opposition to it (i.e. anti Christ) stands the quintessentially less-than-perfect three sixes.

To take '666' so literally (eg the date 06.06.06) is simply poor scholarship.

And perhaps sects with their noses stuck permanently in Revelation/Apocalpypse, the most visionary and symbolic of all the Bible's writings, forget some of the things that Christ says directly in the Gospels ... e.g. most pertinently, perhaps, "not to look for 'times' and 'signs', for 'the end' (parousia) will come unannounced." (- Which is why we should try to make each and every day the 'perfect day'.)

I have to say in today's liturgy we celebrated not '6-6-6' day, but St Norbert, founder of the Premonstratensian Order (a 'reformed' monastic order following the monastic rule of St Augustine, foundation house at Premontre, France - Premonstratensae in Latin) and a diligent bishop.

Special message to Erik - If you did indeed slap the waitress' bum, then I'm afraid that there will probably be time for you to have to face the music after all... probably...

James

(PS Have you all worked out what I do yet...?)

Yes. I'm eating a Magnum.
(that's an ice-cream. I'm not blowing my brains out).

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
Yes. I'm eating a Magnum.

A very good thing to do on 6-6-6 day - ice-cream, that is.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

Special message to Erik - If you did indeed slap the waitress' bum, then I'm afraid that there will probably be time for you to have to face the music after all... probably...

Your right, now she is following me around like a love sick puppy. Just wait til SWMBO finds out!

I can cow confirm that 6-6-6 day is wella nd truely over and the world did not end.

Unfortunately the bank balance is still below zero which isn't doing my fatal upgraditis any good

Cheers
Pete

Well, the world apparently just rebooted and I didn't notice a thing.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

And perhaps sects with their noses stuck permanently in Revelation/Apocalpypse, the most visionary and symbolic of all the Bible's writings,

afaik, the Apocalypse is a popular subject in many american conservative churches, which makes it more than sectarian. I must say from my fleeting encounter with the story, the style seemed to fit the old testament better.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

(PS Have you all worked out what I do yet...?)

Could dirty habits have anything to do with it?

quote:

Originally posted by AlexanderVH:

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

And perhaps sects with their noses stuck permanently in Revelation/Apocalpypse, the most visionary and symbolic of all the Bible's writings,

afaik, the Apocalypse is a popular subject in many american conservative churches, which makes it more than sectarian.

I'm afraid I not entirely convinced that the description 'American conservative churches' automatically makes them not sects (as opposed to sectarian, a word I didn't use).

Much such 'theology' from such groups largely ignored/s the first 1500+ years of Christianity and the teaching of the Church, especially the period of the early Church in which the Scriptures were written down and the Canon of Scripture agreed, but arises from the melting pot of the sects which fled Europe because their 'teachings' were so novel and inconsistent with either Catholic or Reformed understanding because they were so de-contextualised.

I must say from my fleeting encounter with the story, the style seemed to fit the old testament better.

Indeed, the classic OT example of Apocalyptic is Daniel, but it does appear elsewhere too. Apocalyptic - the power of language expressing things beyond ordinary human understanding in a very visionary and symbolic way.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

(PS Have you all worked out what I do yet...?)

Could dirty habits have anything to do with it?

No, clean habits

J

PS Like e-mails, I have emboldened simply to show my replies, not because I am a ranting lunatic.

Reminds me of that wonderful Beyond the Fringe sketch where they are sitting on a mountain, waiting for the world to end (and go through the detailing of all the elaborate precautions they have taken) then:

quote:

Cook: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

All: Now is the end, perish the world

(silence)

Cook: It was GMT wasn't it? Well, it's not quite the conflagration we'd been banking on. Never mind lads, same time tomorrow: we must get a winner one day.

regards, Tam

James,

Indeed I mixed up 'sects' and 'sectarian'. So. I would think the subject is very mainstream in the U.S. And so are sects.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'de-contextualised'. Containing a lot of mysticism and symbolism?

Apart from the style of apocalyptic writings, I was thinking of the Apocalypse of St John. I understand that 'Judgement Day' is very narrow usage compared to 'revelation'. It's elements of authoritarian strict judgement that I associate with the Old Testament and with conservatism. Not that I would state so arrogantly and loudly. But spelling out the prejudice allows one to look better at it.

So one can be better armed in one's arrogance...

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

No, clean habits

I'm on the right track
Bedtime.

regards, Alexander

I must be way out of the main stream then.
As a regular church-goer I can say that most of our discussions are on how to have a better relationship with God and others. And I've sampled many different churches over my years.
I honestly can't remember the last time I heard a sermon on the "Apocalypse" -- far more likely to encounter an interpretation in some lame Hollywood movie... They seem to worry about it more than decent Christians as far as I can tell.
David

Damn! I had a day off work yesterday so missed your warning for the end of the World. Must go and find a waitress.

Couldn't agree more, David.

Alexander - by 'de-contextualised' I was really thinking of the phenomena of

(1) lifting individual sections (verses, chapters) out of their overall context within the body of the text, and building doctrine on (sometimes obscure) isolated portions of Scripture. So, de-contextualised from textual location.

(2) building doctrine on particular (usually English) translations, some quite peculiar, which simply do not correspond to what is actually said in the text in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew. So, de-contextualised from the text as originally written.

(3) also, having no knowledge of the overall historical background to particular events and contemporary and parallel cultures, etc. (e.g. the creation stories in Genesis which are radically different from the 'typical' creation myths of that period in the ancient middle east.) So, de-contextualisation from the broader historical and cultural location.

It is often claimed that the God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath, and that the God of the New Testament is a God of love. Yet it is the same God! What is reflected is not so much a changing God, but rather a changing - or better, a growing - understanding of God by humanity over the course many centuries, in response to his self-disclosure. - Over the course of the centuries so the realisation grows that God is not simply a god of blind justice, but of seeing, compassionate, loving justice. But that is there in the OT too. e.g. ... 'The Lord is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want' etc. Ps 23.

James

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
"Apocalypse" -- far more likely to encounter an interpretation in some lame Hollywood movie... They seem to worry about it more than decent Christians as far as I can tell.
David

Of course, and non-Christians too. It is amusing how some like to grasp the doom scenarios and be impressed by Nostadamus and Da Vinci Code nonsense, and I guess the end-of-the-world day is just another example of that, although I don't believe for one minute that anyone can seriously think it's going to happen that way. It just makes me laugh. At least the modern Christian church has moved from fire and brimstone to being thankful.

quote:

Over the course of the centuries so the realisation grows that God is not simply a god of blind justice, but of seeing, compassionate, loving justice

I've never fully understood the logic in accepting that "God the creator" has to be responsible for justice in this life. I can't see the relevance, and it's demanding too much. We don't expect our parents to provide for us all our lives just because they brought us into the world. I can understand that after this life we might make sense of it, but justice down here seems counterproductive to the point of us being here. Life isn't fair - so what?

Rasher, I agree with you. To clarify, I didn't mean 'justice' in the sense of apparent injustice - good things happening to bad people, bad things happening to good people. In the complexities of a 'fallen world', compounded by our own foibles, choices and actions both deliberate and unwitting, and those of billions of others, "sh*t happens". (And sh*t happens to even the best, viz. Jesus.) Though at least some of the sh*t is perfectly within our own power to do something about, such as Trade Justice, not pulling the trigger, or trampling over others, etc.

But rather I was referring to 'justice' (in the first instance) as the picturing of God as the great policeman in the sky waving his celestial truncheon, out to get the naughty.

And that some people say this is the OT image of God, a God of wrath. (In parallel ancient cultures, gods were very much pictured like this.)

In the second instance - I meant the growing realisation that God is not simply like that, 'blind justice' etc ('I'm sorry, you've been naughty, I've have no choice but to punish you'), but rather the loving, compassionate God 'who loved the world so much he sent his Son, not to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved' (interesting word in the original Greek...), who recognises our 'falling short' - the harm this does to others, to ourselves, to creation, etc, which may be 'punishable offences' under pure blind justice - but who also regards us with infinite love, compassion, mercy, etc.

It's a bit like the Parable of The Prodigal Son (or do I really mean of The Forgiving Father, or of The Jealous Brother? It's all there.)

James

And here we come to the crunch. In your view then, God is not the policeman but the courtroom. You see, in my view God isn't either, because I don't know what God is. I know that there is purpose and meaning to us being here, and I know what love is, but I haven't yet figured out further than that. Because we are here I believe in Creation, but not necessarily a Creator. I also know that whatever it is that put me here and gave me my children and my home, this nameless creation I'm in, I trust it. And because I trust it, I'm happy to leave it be. Sounds daft, but that's the way I see it has to be.
It seems as though others are trying to find a figure of authority to take control, distribute justice, save the world, save their loved ones from illness, and they're all running around blaming each other for adopting the wrong God - so the idea of catastophic events being predicted in the OT seems attractive as it confirms it's authenticity. Unfortunately, it would appear that a God of "Blind Justice" is what people are looking for, because they are unwilling to take take responsibility for themselves. I think maybe our views are closer than they might at first appear.
Is it necessary James, as a man of the cloth , to have the image of God as a being?

Rasher, I really do agree with you again!

When I picked on the 'celestial policeman' motif to use on my previous comment, I had toyed with using the 'courtroom' image instead - they are actually interchangable in the point I was trying to make. And you add another helpful image to be exploded, that of the 'celestial puppeteer', when you say "trying to find a figure of authority to take control ... because they are unwilling to take take responsibility for themselves".

The Christian Faith - as understood in its historic, mainstream form, which can trace the line back to the apostles - is quite clear about the need to take personal responsibility!

"Is it necessary ... to have the image of God as a being?" Depends what you mean by 'image', depends what you mean by 'being'...

"Late have I loved you, beauty so ancient and so new" said St Augustine of Hippo in the C4th (who earlier in life had prayed "Make me chaste, but not yet").

'So ancient and so new' I guess the image of the 'old man in the sky' is an analogy, it could easily be (and was) the image of a newborn too. Human beings - I believe under divine inspiration - in writing, in art, etc, have used analogy (let's here it for analogue!) by taking things we can see and understand to relate them to things beyond ordinary human understanding.

'Being' - 'blob' or state of existence? Being - 'that which IS'. God is Love.

As a Christian, I do not approach the Divine as some intellectual concept first, and then try to work in logical progression from that. Rather, I begin with something more concrete and visible and go from there, the person of Jesus Christ. "Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son ... He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact template of God’s very being" (Hebrews 1).

In the words of Sherlock Holmes "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (The Adventure of The Blanched Soldier, and many other places).

And in the words of CS Lewis (to boil down a very long quote) - 'either Jesus is a madman, a devil, or who he says he is' (cf Mere Christianity, and other places).

That's more my line of approach - if you like, 'concrete to abstract' rather than 'abstract to concrete'.

James

I need to ponder on that for a while James.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
As a Christian, I do not approach the Divine as some intellectual concept first, and then try to work in logical progression from that. Rather, I begin with something more concrete and visible and go from there,
James

Yeah, you see I just can't do that, start off with an acceptance of something that on the surface appears to be so flaky. I suppose it's okay for me as I'm not actually trying to find proof of anything, I'm happy to accept and be thankful for what I have, which means I'm unwilling to go the extra mile with this concept. I was driving to a meeting yesterday and spotted my wife's car coming in the opposite direction on the bypass, and I could see my children in the back, and I was struck that my whole world is in there, in that car, in a little capsule travelling at 70mph on the bypass. A most exraordinary feeling. So I guess I'm just happy to float along with my beliefs, whatever they are, and accept that organised religion just isn't for me. I can't seem to stop discussing it though.
I'm a hypocrite though because we've had our children Christened.
I'm pleased that the world didn't end, and I hope Earwicker isn't too disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
Apparently evangelical Christians the world over are praying non-stop all day to counter the forces of evil. So that's all right, then.

Indeed, that ought to do it!

EW