2x180s v new 250

Scotty, get a new 250 this will be a lot better than messing with the 180s in a way to which they were not designed.

Scotty,

I would go for the XPS before even considering changing the power amp.

I had a sistem identical to yours appart from the speaker and opted for the XPS first. It made a BIG improvement.

Regards

NB

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Originally posted by scottyhammer:
hello guys,
im new to all this but have been monitoring with interest. anyway i would appreciate your views. my system is currently; cdx- 82- 180- hicap with a new pair of pmc ob1 speakers, which are fantastic by the way!! im thinking of upgrading this way.?? either buying a new 250 or getting a second 180 and bi amping + bi cabling my pmc,s. which would you do?? then later i would want to upgrade further but what to change next? xps- pre amp-supercap???????? over to you guys.

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If you like the way it sounds now then get another 180. It will bring more control to the speakers... The new NAP250 will come with the new Naim sound and you may or may not like it... so be prepare to accept the change. The new NAP250 will be as good as a pair of 180 in term of transient power (and it costs a lot more....). Buying the new 250 will probably trigger future updates but if you get a NAP180 you may not want to change your system with new component models (it may be a blessing as you will save lot of money on hifi).

I agree with both of the above. Try both, but 2x180's is a distraction, not a proper improvement.

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Originally posted by Rasher:
I agree with both of the above. Try both, but 2x180's is a distraction, not a proper improvement.

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Not true. By-amping is a well known method to bring more control (transient power) to speakers which results in better bass and dynamic. It is not a distraction. It is an improvement.

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Originally posted by James:
In absolute terms, a single 250 sounded more coherent than bi-amped 250s, so I'd suggest it's not always going to be an improvement.

James

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By-amping is NOT just adding 2 stereo amps
It needs to be done right.

Tuan I spoke to naim themselves regarding this some years ago, they said upgrade the pre amp then the power, don't mess with bi amping, its a girls game.

Garyi, i beg to differ on multiple amplification. my speakers - LINN KABERS like oodles of power and using three amps in a tri-wire AKTIV setup brings enormous benefits of transient power/control to these hard to drive boxes.

toksik. I would agree entirly that an active set up rocks.

However taking two stereo amps and only using part of them is silly when in this instance a 250 will deliver far better goods.

Of course if people wish to buy so they get to have another box, well that changes the outlook a bit.

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James said:
But to answer Scotty's question, I'd recommend whichever of the two units you can find at the right price and vintage second-hand. Supercap for the 82 or XPS for the CDX. Both will bring a significant improvement, but if buying new, then it's the XPS no question. I'd be inclined to change the 180 last

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I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of a 282, and am planning to power it with 2 HiCaps (2ndH). I felt I would prefer to save the "big"money for and XPS2 to go with my CDX2 later on and since I already had one HiCap this seemed the best compromise.

Does any body have a feel for how much better than 2 HiCaps a Supercap is?

On the power amp side my Naim dealer advised and I concurred that that could come later. The pre was first then the CDX2 in his opinion. Of course that's not coloured by the fact that he expects to sell me a lot more later. He openly admitted that as he put it "AH, I've got you hooked now"

GEOFFP

Geoff,

Just upgraded from 2*Hi-caps to a Supercap and I would describe the change as like adding a third Hi-cap but not the quantum leap I was expecting, certainly it sounds great and better than 2 Hicaps but the big improvement was going from zero to one hi-cap on the 82

Tuan says,

"By-amping is a well known method to bring more control (transient power) to speakers which results in better bass and dynamic. It is not a distraction. It is an improvement."

Tuan,

I gotta say that you read as if you're very dogmatic and not very experimental in your approach to hifi equipment. I do hope that's not how you really are, but I really object to dogma where experimentation is required.

In fact, bi-amping is a subject of controversy in the field. Some swear by it; others disagree. I daresay that the nay-sayers seem to have ears closer to mine than do the proponents.

But the key is how bi-amping works with Scotty's equipment in his room - and that's an experimental question. Unless you've done it, you don't know how it will work.

What we do know is that Naim states unequivocally that in their opinion one of a better Naim amp will sound better than 2 of a less good Naim amp - even to the extent that passive 135s are preferable to active 250s. And we also know that Naim's position passes the snicker test - if GIGO holds for this matter, they're likely to be right.

Besides, a person who likes Naim equipment may vey well like it because the equipment derives from the theory - that is, Naimiacs are predisposed to follow Naim orthodoxy because they like the products of that orthodoxy.

Sure there are people who prefer the active 250's, and that's great - but they do seem to be in a minority. Personally, I deviate from orthodxy in not liking the Nait3 or CDPs lower than the CDS (though I haven't heard the CDX2 much at all).

Scotty should listen to his choices, but if he's got only one chance, he's better off following Naim theory - he's more likely to prefer the 250 to bi-amped 180s. And even if he prefers the bi-amped 180s, statements that seem to derive from reading spec sheets aren't very helpful.

Regards.

Phil

well thanks you guys, i appreciate your views and found the " debate " very interesting . i will go and listen myself soon. thought you would like to know naims recommendations.!! 1. buy 250. 2. supercap. 3. 82 to a 252. lastly add xps to cdx.
cheers.! & thanks again. scotty.

2x180 bettered a 250 for me and gives a type of open sound that you can't get any other way unless spending big $$$. It's personal, but once you've heard it you may not be able to live without it.

82 and Hicaps

You can probably find a s/h Hicap at around 350£ and the improvement is worth much more than that.

Claus

Always has delivered more of everything I love about Naim.

I'd audition (and probably buy) a new 250 in a heartbeat. 250's are when my system really started rocking and doing everything I wanted it to do.

During this discussion it is probably also important to maintain the distinction between bi-amping and going active. IIRC Naim has traditionally recommended going active after the 135 level was reached. It does, of course, require the purchase of the snaxo plus another hicap, so that might help offset the additional cost of a new 250...

I look forward to reading your posts after you've had a chance to audition some of these options. Please keep us posted.

Markus
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you say that naim rec 252 before XPS2. I am suprised at this as naim have always been source first, then pre etc. The CDX2 is a great cdp but good enough for a 252?

Any administrater care to comment? I would have thought that 252 Super would really warrant the CDS3.

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Looks like ther is variable opinion out there amongst the daelers.
I have a CDX2 and just decided for the 282 but also discussed the 252 with my dealer. He advised me that the 282 was the better choice for the CDX2, especially "bare" as I am running it.
I will be using a pair of HiCaps for the 282 so he reckoned the upgrade path for me, if I can ever afford it would be:
XPS2 for the CDX2 next, then a 250 to replace the 150 I have, then a supercap for the 282 and then lastly swap the CDX2 for a CDS3 head unit.
Once I had done all that come back and talk about the 2 box 252.

regards
GEOFFP

ok guys, there seems to be a lot of confusion generated by naims reply to me . so i thought i would give you the reply in full word for word.
:currently the weakest link in the chain is pobably the nap180.upgrading this to the latest nap250 willbe an excellent step to take. in many ways the new 250 is one of the biggest stars in the new range and should really get to grips with your pmc ob1s. upgrading the nac82 to a nac282 would notbe my recommendation. while the nac282 is a better performer, the difference is not big enough to warrent the change. if you were going to upgrade the pre amp then really you should be aiming more towards a nac252 but in the context of your current system the nac82 is more than good enough. moving to a supercap however is a very worthwhile step and will ultimately prepare you for any future upgrade to a nac252 in the future. betond that you are correct in your conclusion that adding an xps power supply to your cdx would be the logical next step a year or two down the road. of course theres no substitute for a good demo of all the options in your home, so i would ddvise you to get in touch with your naim dealer at your convenience. kind regards, richard dane. i hope this helps to clarify matters and look forward to your views. p.s. talking of the new 250 have naim cured the overheating problems of the old 250. and does the new 250 even have a trip out switch,?? regards , scottyhammer